Oppressors

[NoJuliana]

Kind of shocking to see the amount of people prepared on Mumsnet to attack the use of the term Karen on the grounds that it is misogynistic - are you saying that women have to defend people who systematically use their race and class privilege to keep others down, just because they are women?? Are we meant to ignore their racism and tactical deployment of class status, because sisterhood? No thanks. People who behave in a way that has led to them being known collectively as Karens need to be called out on their behaviour. But I guess if the name Karen is offensive, we could just use the term Oppressor

Actually I'd be interested in understanding what , if any , groups in society are more prone to racist behaviour, and if they do exist, to understand why

My suspicion is that the more marginalised a group the more likely to see extremes of behaviour including racism

@bordersroaming exactly! As I said earlier there is no way that anyone will get a general consensus that Karen is anything but the worst slur in the whole language on Mumsnet. You wouldn't join a vegan forum to extol the virtues of a bacon sandwich.

I agree

I agree with Oppressors - it hits the nail right on the head of what's being done and gives the appropriate sting where necessary. Though I don't see it going down well with some people.

No matter the term used though, before long people would start misusing it. Suddenly any woman who speaks up will be called an Oppressor. Then the subsequent threads complaining about the term being a misogynist slur to shut down women, and should be banned.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@bordersroaming exactly! As I said earlier there is no way that anyone will get a general consensus that Karen is anything but the worst slur in the whole language on Mumsnet. You wouldn't join a vegan forum to extol the virtues of a bacon sandwich.[/quote]
Nobody is going to be OK with accepting a slur aimed at the worst members of their group onto their own shoulders.
Why on earth would you?

And using typical given names in a particular grouping is doing that.
I've mentioned above how horrible it is to see sneers at "Shaniqua" doing x, "Jamal" doing y, "Abdul" doing z - and we all know what xyz mean because it's painting a whole population with a stereotype brush.

Years ago Paddy and Mick were thick and brutish, drinking pints and making Semtex bombs.
I haven't heard anyone refer to Paddies or Micks for years in the UK for years - surely you are not advocating a return to that, on the grounds that yes, some Irish people are indeed thick alcoholic bomb makers?

1Week I don't tend to use it. I don't think it's a slur and to call it misogynist is laughable in my view. But I don't use it because I think it makes light of the sheer danger these women pose to Black lives. To casually say "Oh a Karen came in to the store today at work lol" isn't something I find funny given that woman could actually have posed a serious risk to my job if I were a Black sales assistant or something similar. That's why I said earlier thank god for smartphones and I try to encourage Black youths particularly to absolutely keep their cool because once they rise to the occasion then out comes the 'angry Black person' trope and on and on we go.

Labelling a group of women with some negative stereotype is what mysogeny is

Karen is negative and it is a stereotype

Or perhaps you think that all white middle aged women are weaponising their status in society against others ?

Vladimir, You might as well urge elderly ladies to grip their handbags tighter when a young black man comes into view.

Things happen, humanity can't be perfected, but there's a difference between common sense precautions and encouraging distrust and division.

1Week I'm not sure how I am encouraging distrust and division?

You practise it.
Your actions are based on it
You promote those actions

By saying white middle aged women pose a serious risk to the jobs of black sales assistants.

Though I agree, telling people to keep cool and not rise to bait is good advice for everyone.

By saying white middle aged women pose a serious risk to the jobs of black sales assistants.

Except I didn't say this
I said I encourage Black youths to keep their cool. By this in instances when they face such customers. It's no laughing matter to write it off as a 'Karen' came into the store.

OK, you just think it then.

If they are just laughing off annoying customers, I'd let them tbh. Annoying customers of any subtype are extremely common in retail, as is remaining calm in front of them but venting and laughing with your mates afterwards. You pretty much learn that first day on the job.

If you insist that's what I think despite having said I don't then I'm not sure I can help with that line of argument

You actually had two sentences

Which read together as you advise your black colleagues to keep a smartphone handy to record the white middle aged female racists

it did read as for that sub group in particular, not for any racist in general

Vladimir You said above that you don't think shop assistants should laugh about Karen's given she could've posed a serious risk to my job had I been a black shop assistant a paraphrase but fairly exact.

My colleagues? @bordersroaming

As I said, this isn't a forum fitting for this discussion and it's patently obvious why.

Me: I like soup
Posters above: So what you're saying is that you think people who eat carbs should be arrested.

all round.

It totally is. It just requires people to speak truthfully to each other in a spirit of mutual enquiry.
Discourse is the only way to deepen understanding, and disagreement isn't necessarily disrespect

1Week I said using the name Karen isn't something I tend to do because it makes light of a serious issue. I used an example of if I were a sales assistant. I went on to say I encourage Black youths particularly to keep their cool in these situations (but my main work has been more with young Black men who regularly get stopped and searched) but the same logic applies as a Black person don't start ranting and raving because 'you' then become the aggressor in the face of e.g. microaggressions etc. The issue is a lot bigger than a disgruntled customer.

I have never once seen Karen used in a discussion about racism. Only the standard ageist misogyny context. As in, 'stfu woman who is old enough for me not to get away with mansplaining / who is handing me my arse in a rational discussion/ who I don't necessarily want to fuck'.

How about not using it because there are real life people like me who are actually called Karen and it effectively wipes out any chances of me having a real discussion anywhere because as soon as my name is mentioned its on for the most amount of memes and abuse they can give me even when I'm DEFENDING SOMEONE I get abuse prominent black person dies someone commented something racist I call them out everyone piles on me

Go for a job interview oh your names Karen? How do you think you will be able to cope not being a manager

Ring somewhere Karen? Haha shall I get my manager now?

Say something really KAREN?

ooh I need someone shouting at care to take this one Karen it's in your nature we know

I'm a nice person wanting to change my name and not offend my parents because people cannot seperate name from intent

Oh behave OP

It would be incredibly useful for there to be a term for the particular racism of white women.
However that is not how the term Karen is used in the common vocabulary in the uk.

It’s used as a way to silence women from defending themselves in any situation.

I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve heard young women say ‘ i don’t want to sound like a Karen haha but…’ and then go on to say something perfectly reasonable like they were over charged at a garage.

It’s a slur that slots nicely into our language because there’s already words like it, for example bitch or witch.

Society does not like women having boundaries or standing up for themselves and Karen is s very convenient term to keep them in their place. It keeps older women in line by dismissing them and it keeps younger women in line as a threat, look what happens when you don’t behave: you don’t want to become a Karen now.

If the term was only used as short hand for racism I don’t think anyone would have such a problem, except maybe people called Karen.

@HereticFanjo

I have never once seen Karen used in a discussion about racism. Only the standard ageist misogyny context. As in, 'stfu woman who is old enough for me not to get away with mansplaining / who is handing me my arse in a rational discussion/ who I don't necessarily want to fuck'.

I have barely heard the term Karen used in any other context than discussions about racism……

Well apologies for not really caring if it's your friend colleague acquaintance or random stranger

As pathetic as commenting on someone's spelling not the actual content of a post

It's the what you are telling people to do and why that matters

@MoonbeamSprinkles

Oh behave OP

It would be incredibly useful for there to be a term for the particular racism of white women.
However that is not how the term Karen is used in the common vocabulary in the uk.

It’s used as a way to silence women from defending themselves in any situation.

I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve heard young women say ‘ i don’t want to sound like a Karen haha but…’ and then go on to say something perfectly reasonable like they were over charged at a garage.

It’s a slur that slots nicely into our language because there’s already words like it, for example bitch or witch.

Society does not like women having boundaries or standing up for themselves and Karen is s very convenient term to keep them in their place. It keeps older women in line by dismissing them and it keeps younger women in line as a threat, look what happens when you don’t behave: you don’t want to become a Karen now.

If the term was only used as short hand for racism I don’t think anyone would have such a problem, except maybe people called Karen.

Behave?? Maybe there is some huge difference I’m not aware of between how Karen is used in the US and how it’s used in the UK…. but there’s a link, for sure. The term didn’t magically appear twice completely coincidentally on opposite sides of the Atlantic. But of course, it may well have evolved in different ways, and if it’s primary use in the UK is to silence women then of course that’s a massive problem. But it’s a separate problem from the issue of whether it’s okay to use the term Karen in the ‘US’ context (which I really think is way too narrow a description but…). I stand by my view that it is a useful to have a term for that specific brand of racism and classism.