Panorama & Pandora - what's the point?

[Neveratruerfriend]

Watching Panorama last night, regarding political party donors. Also the Pandora papers is in the news today (after research dug up by the BBC).

But despite all this stuff being "exposed" and in the news, what is the point? No-one is ever accountable for anything. No-one is ever shamed into undoing their actions. In fact it seems to confirm that people of power, wealth and privilege can get away with anything to the detriment of all the "little people".

No one cares. Because we aren’t even vaguely surprised.
And the world keeps turning.

It’s all so depressing. And all Boris has to do is ignore it. And it WILL go away.

@Neveratruerfriend

Watching Panorama last night, regarding political party donors. Also the Pandora papers is in the news today (after research dug up by the BBC).

But despite all this stuff being "exposed" and in the news, what is the point? No-one is ever accountable for anything. No-one is ever shamed into undoing their actions. In fact it seems to confirm that people of power, wealth and privilege can get away with anything to the detriment of all the "little people".

I'm guessing it's elite vs elite, with different groups having different perspectives

@Neveratruerfriend

It's the fact that a lot goes on out in the open too. Eg Tory donors and PPE contracts for starters. Surely no one is naive enough to believe that anyone would donate hundreds of thousands to the Tories and not expect anything in return? And that's what the government is telling us, according to Panorama last night.

Sometimes a parties politics or ideas can match a focus group or lobby group ect so then they could give the donation to further the parties goals

To be fair on the Blairs, they saw a property for sale and they wanted to buy it. It was (already) owned by a company so in order to buy the property, they had to buy the company. It was an offshore company and they have, apparently, brought the company onshore. I am not a fan of the Blairs but the hypocrite label is imo unfair.

I'm all for a better world order, but I also know enough of history to think that it's not worth my while trying to bring it about. That way lies misery.

Instead of seeing impossible wealth as something we should all have a share in, I see it as like being any other animal species on the planet. There's no entitlement to a good life, and it's my responsibility to provide enough for myself and my loved ones. I do that, so what does it matter that someone else has MORE?

@thecatsthecats

I'm all for a better world order, but I also know enough of history to think that it's not worth my while trying to bring it about. That way lies misery.

Instead of seeing impossible wealth as something we should all have a share in, I see it as like being any other animal species on the planet. There's no entitlement to a good life, and it's my responsibility to provide enough for myself and my loved ones. I do that, so what does it matter that someone else has MORE?

I don't disagree with this from a personal perspective but a lot of the problem is that that the richer are getting richer through exploiting the rest of us. This might be at a distance - through avoiding tax thereby increasing the amount of tax the rest of us have to pay - or through corrupt practices which have a real and tangible impact on people's lives (often in very poor countries).

@mynameiscalypso

Bang on.

It comes down to the same thing though. Worker bees and queen bees. We might be drones, but does being a drone provide any less of a life that a free range existence would?

Let me see. Healthcare, food, housing... I think I would struggle to provide that by myself, and although I know that there are a great deal of people who live in poverty in the UK, I also know that poverty is extremely relative. And that the methods of revolution have many victims.

I have the power to be fair and generous in my own sphere of life (as an employer, I raised salaries, reduced hours and improved working flexibility). But I'm not going to waste emotional energy fretting about the queen bees of this world.

That's very Hobbesian thecatsthecats. I mean, I agree with you about the costs of revolution but it shouldn't be that you put up with whatever crap your economic system throws at you just because life would be more poor, nasty, brutish and short if you were out there on your own.

Inequality in society is at a modern-times peak. I (late 30s) am in the first generation who expect their living standards to be worse than their parents. This is not a poor country but we have people using food banks to feed their children.

Meanwhile, unimaginable wealth is being generated for a very few by our labour, or by taking resources or opportunities that could otherwise create more equality in society. In that, I include the taxes that everyone who takes out of a system puts back in.

That isn't right. It shouldn't be in the gift of individual employers or companies to munificently throw some bones. I don't want socialism or communism, God knows. But we have untrammelled capitalism and that's not good enough either. You can have progressive change, as we did during the long 19th century and the post-war period. That's what we need. It might not be very comfortable but it will be better than waiting for the revolution that history suggests will, eventually, occur.

That's what we need. It might not be very comfortable

Freias In what way will it be uncomfortable?

it will be better than waiting for the revolution that history suggests will, eventually, occur

Hmm…..interesting. I’m racking my brains to think of any countries which have, and have had, rich and poor which have never had a revolution.

Now, we don't even know who creates the power structures, let alone how to change them. It's thoroughly depressing.

On this topic, thought not the Pandora papers, the Facebook whistleblower, Frances Haugen, will be giving evidence to a US Senate committee today.

Although obviously focussing on child safety, the session may be quite interesting about Facebook's role in power structures.

“Protecting Kids Online: Testimony from a Facebook Whistleblower” at 10:00 a.m EDT, ie 3pm British Summer Time.
WATCH LIVESTREAM: www.commerce.senate.gov

(Story from yesterday for background:
Frances Haugen: Facebook whistleblower reveals identity
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58784615 )

Im on partisan but have noticed a bit of a theme on forums like MN.

For example, last week's issue with Kier Starmer. His comments about cervixes, etc.
A giant pile on ensued by people saying they will never vote labour until this stops.

Now that's fine, but why do people never have this attitude to Conservative atrocities? We have an openly offensive PM with a history of racist, misogynist remarks tied to his belt, but nobody ever says 'that's it! im never voting tory again!'

Labour are always nit picked at in a very minute way, whilst it seems tory supporters are willing to forgive anything.

And, for the record, If labour are the infamous 'unelectable opposition', how will people ever know that if they keep voting tory?

I don't have much time for either party, and I loathe divisive politics, but I do see a duff set of standard here that go one way and not the other. God help us!

Non-partisan, sorry.

I think it will be uncomfortable Andante57 in the same way that any major social change is uncomfortable. Ultimately, probably more uncomfortable for those being asked to give up power but they have the ability to make it quite uncomfortable for the rest of us along the way. And depending on the approaches taken by those driving change - Insulate Britain giving an excellent example of this now - might cause annoyances and occasional tragedies for individuals.

For some, the discomfort of the change might be outweighed by the satisfaction of seeing the results. I don't know whether that would be true for me and I'm sure that there are many who won't (for whatever reason) think it was worth the pain, even if their lives have improved afterwards.

FreiasBathtub thank you for answering my question.

Now that's fine, but why do people never have this attitude to Conservative atrocities? We have an openly offensive PM with a history of racist, misogynist remarks tied to his belt, but nobody ever says 'that's it! im never voting tory again

Lolliwillowes go onto the Brexit topic on mn. It’s posters are all v anti Tory and woe betide anyone posts a pro Tory comment on there.

The Pandora report as reported by the BBC World Service is more scathing about the non-UK citizens using these schemes to invest the ill-gotten gains harvested from their unsuspecting citizens (Jordan, Azerbajian, Russia etc etc) in safe stable countries, like the UK, than about the Blairs. Other news outlets in the UK have focused more on the celebrity aspects of tax and wealth planning as having greater news value. Anyone who takes their tax status and wealth preservation strategies seriously enough to consult international lawyers and accountacy firms would get similar advice.

Wasn't the Guardian in news quite recently for some sort of tax avoidance scheme?

2016. Toby young that well respected neutral journo wrote an article about it in the spectator. But the actual journalists weren’t involved in any of that. They aren’t running the country though are they?

It's not new. Just look back to the expenses scandal which was theft of tax payers money. They got to apologize and a little slap on the wrist. If I had defrauded my work place I would expect to be reported to the police and to also lose my professional registration for dishonesty. Its one rule for us and one for them. They will always protect their own

Buying properties in the name of offshore companies used to be quite common for overseas buyers in Portugal a few years ago. Not just million pound mansions but relatively modest properties.

The Portuguese government was getting quite pissed off about it as they were losing a lot in tax revenues so they decided to penalise offshore held properties by massively increasing property taxes on them.

As a result of this many people transferred the properties back into their own names or into the names of Portuguese companies.

This obviously cost them (quite a lot in some cases) but the really telling thing was that the super rich still managed to find ways round this or simply absorbed the higher property tax costs.

The problem is that the seriously wealthy will always find a way to avoid tax. The offshore issue will never go away whilst there are wealthy people who feel that there is nothing morally wrong with avoiding tax while the man in the street is expected to pay up.

The UK residents named as participants in such schemes are the small fry. Tony Blair's £320k pales into insignificance compared to the billions laundered by Russians, Azerbaijianis and several African oil potentates.

@Thekolschisonme

2016. Toby young that well respected neutral journo wrote an article about it in the spectator. But the actual journalists weren’t involved in any of that. They aren’t running the country though are they?

The following was from the Independent:

The events and magazines company Top Right Group ran up a corporation tax bill of just £200,000 despite making a pre-tax profit of £186.2m last year.

Top Right, owned by Guardian Media Group and Apax Partners, landed a huge one-off windfall of £166.1m after selling its motoring research arm, CAP. Its chief financial officer, Mandy Gradden, told The Independent the profits on the sale were "exempt from tax under the substantial shareholding exemption which is available to every company in the UK".

Maybe the Guardian journalists weren’t involved but those in charge of the Guardian trust knew what was going on so maybe they should look to their own tax schemes as well as criticising others.

But so what ? Tories are in power. Numerous episodes of tory mps exploiting their position.
Jenrick's dodgy dealings with property developers, Sunak managing to get an affluent place like Richmond levelling up support above places like Barnsley...too many to mention. What's your opinion on those ?