A question for managers/HR

[Pelligro]

If you had a member of staff off sick with exhaustion/stress. What would be acceptable activities for them to be doing whilst they were off.

For example, exercise, going to the pub, going on holiday, out dancing and drinking, weekends away etc etc

Exhaustion is not the same as stress and someone stressed could absolutely go raving. It could be good tonic.

But I can see why you're frustrated. Sadly there are people who take the piss.

Stress is often code for bullying. It could also be to do with what else is going on eg- coworker who was a single mum to a toddler and six month old and wasn’t getting any sleep went off with stress and exhaustion despite @just answering the phone”- it was that or a nervous breakdown. Another coworker was working nights, studying days and it got too much. So it could be a number of things. Or, they could be taking the piss. Do they get paid while they are off? Or is it just sick pay?

The other employees should not be discussing this with you. If they have concerns, they need to record it formally, show evidence and you cannot discuss it.
If you think they’re swinging the lead, follow your sickness policy.

Going abroad when signed off sick is a bit off. They should be using annual leave for that. The rest of it, not so much.

Presumably you will hold a return to work meeting with them when their sick note expires?

@Underamour

Stress is often code for bullying. It could also be to do with what else is going on eg- coworker who was a single mum to a toddler and six month old and wasn’t getting any sleep went off with stress and exhaustion despite *@just* answering the phone”- it was that or a nervous breakdown. Another coworker was working nights, studying days and it got too much. So it could be a number of things. Or, they could be taking the piss. Do they get paid while they are off? Or is it just sick pay?

I used to work in a team and around one third of the workers went off sick with stress after a new manager arrived. The work hadn’t changed. She was a bully and judgemental and I can imagine she was so surprised her team couldn’t cope and she had so much sickness. She had zero understanding of how her attitude and behaviour affected others. I left pretty quickly…

You need to have a conversation with her to understand whether this is work related stress or not- if is, find out from her what the cause of the stress is (bullying? workload? Not knowing how to do tasks?) and agree with the employee how the stress factors can be reduced or removed to enable a return to work.

How long have they worked for you?

To answer some questions:

No I’m not discussing with other employees. They have brought it up in their 1-1s, they all follow each other social media. They have asked when this person is returning as they are covering their work and they think it’s unfair when she is off doing x/y/x

I don’t think I am a bully. But then most bullies wouldn’t?! It’s not something which has been levelled at me before and I’ve always had good feedback from my teams.

She was on 2 week fit to work notes. The latest one is dated for another month.

She is on full pay. We are a publicly funded service (NHS) so yes I do have a responsibility not to pay someone their salary if they aren’t entitled to it.

She has no commitments outside of work, no children, works part time.

I think it completely depends on the specifics.

If their stress is wholly caused by work, then it doesn’t really matter what they do outside of work, they are only going to be able to return once the work issues are resolved.

If they are saying that they are stressed and exhausted because of something non-work related then I would be expecting them to take appropriate action to recover, supported by the organisation, and to return to work once the exhaustion resolves. In that case I would be questioning them on why they have the energy to go on nights out but not to come into work. I think it’s totally legitimate for a manager to question that (I lead a HR department FWIW).

There may well be an ongoing conversation about these things, with complexities that you are just unaware of.

I also have two other members of staff off work sick. One having chemo and one with stress. I have no issues with either of this or what they do whilst they are off.

They will not engage in conversations about why they are off sick. They haven’t said it is work related or not. I have a meeting with them next week over the phone.

Two members of staff off with stress….. I think you need to reflect on why that might be

Ultimately if someone suffering from exhaustion needs a holiday to feel better it’s not up to you.
I suggest You tell your staff that she will be off until she’s better and until then you will look at how you can reduce the pressure on them.
You clearly don’t like the person so hopefully they will find another more supportive job and you can find someone else

All you can do is manage them according to your sickness policy/ refer them to occupational health. When it comes to others asking about her then all you can say is all sickness is handled according to the sickness policy and it would be inappropriate for you to talk to them about another employees personal health information.

Annoying as it is to everyone, and I know as I have been there as well, there is diddly squat you can do as all the things you mention can be ‘beneficial to coping with stress’

However the person will find it difficult when they return to work as colleagues will be pissed off with them and may show it. They have the right to do this as long as they don’t start bullying the colleague over it.

Most work places work on a give and take basis, and will try to accommodate holiday requests etc, this may not happen now as colleagues may not be prepared to swap etc

It’s a difficult thing to explain to someone that their colleague can do all of this, and be off work with others picking up the slack, but in our case we have a sickness policy that dictates once you are off 4 weeks you are long term sick and other stuff comes into play such as face to face meetings with LM to see what can be done to accommodate coming back to work, and we can also request they see the occupational health team, which includes a doctor. Normally that shifts them back into work!

Sorry OP, posted my last comment without realising you were the manager.
Are you getting support from your HR dept? They will have had to deal with issues like this countless times I’m sure.
The first stage is to get a conversation with the employee about the cause of their stress and go from there to mutually agree what action needs to be taken to recover. There is probably something in your sickness policy that means that they are obliged to comply with sickness reporting, absence management meetings, etc where you can discuss this info. Ultimately you could decide to withhold sick pay if she doesn’t comply but you need to be a bit more gentle initially.
You should really work with your HR department to come up with a strategy or this will just go on and on.

If the latest fit note is for a month, then the GP is seeing something that you're not. I appreciate how it looks to the team, and that you're trying to do the right thing by the individual and by the whole team.

In your shoes I would refer to OH, specifically asking them to identify the work-related source of the stress, and what will need to be in a return to work plan. You can be clear about what you need that role to do, so OH can assess whether that's do-able. I'd then schedule a return to work planning meeting for 2 weeks prior to the fit note end date (because you'll need time to implement any agreed adjustments).

In terms of what you say to the team when they tell you she's clubbing in Ibiza etc I'd go with "I'm respecting her confidentiality, the same way as I would for any of you. Thank you for sharing the information." Any chance of any backfill from an internal admin bank, to reduce the strain on working team members?

@NotYourCupOfTea

Two members of staff off with stress….. I think you need to reflect on why that might be

Ultimately if someone suffering from exhaustion needs a holiday to feel better it’s not up to you.
I suggest You tell your staff that she will be off until she’s better and until then you will look at how you can reduce the pressure on them.
You clearly don’t like the person so hopefully they will find another more supportive job and you can find someone else

Well one of them has PTSD from seeing so many people die from covid. The other is this one

@Pelligro

The stress of answering a phone and opening some post?

If your attitude toward them and the value of their work is this dismissive the frankly I'm not surprised you have multiple staff off with stress.

If someone is too stressed to come to work then they shouldn't be in work. They can do anything but work. A holiday, spending time with friends, charity work etc all great for mental health.

If your attitude toward them and the value of their work is this dismissive the frankly I'm not surprised you have multiple staff off with stress.

Indeed. I think the work related issue is you.

@Pelligro

To answer some questions:

No I’m not discussing with other employees. They have brought it up in their 1-1s, they all follow each other social media. They have asked when this person is returning as they are covering their work and they think it’s unfair when she is off doing x/y/x

I don’t think I am a bully. But then most bullies wouldn’t?! It’s not something which has been levelled at me before and I’ve always had good feedback from my teams.

She was on 2 week fit to work notes. The latest one is dated for another month.

She is on full pay. We are a publicly funded service (NHS) so yes I do have a responsibility not to pay someone their salary if they aren’t entitled to it.

She has no commitments outside of work, no children, works part time.

She's got a sick note. Nothing to do with you or your team. Them being pissed off about something they saw on social media is not a work concern.

If she was off with a bad hip but a picture of her winning a limbo contest was all over SM with the trophy you can legitimately ask what it's about.

At work you tell them their concerns are work. Not SM. Asking them to do any reasonable task associated with their work is acceptable. Including taking on other work for a limited period whilst they are absent.

As you work in a large organisation just follow policy.

In a small organisation people will have been dismissed for less.

I understand why all your team are annoyed.

MN gets attacks of the vapours however at the merest hint that anyone could be a skiver.

1. Do not discuss with her colleagues. Just advise them that their concerns are noted and that you are managing the situation. You could also say the reason for absence is confidential.

1. Follow nhs managing attendance policy to the letter. Seek support from HR.

1. Research HSE standards

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wbk01.htm

www.hse.gov.uk/stress/assets/docs/returntowork.pdf

www.hse.gov.uk/stress/assets/docs/indicatortool.pdf

1. Prior to the meeting with the employee email the stress questionnaire (link above) and ask her to fill it in. Use this to frame the discussion to drill down what the stressors are. Also advise you are referring to OH. Finally, offer services of EAP.

1. Refer to OH asking very specific questions based on questionnaire and discussion. The aim being to identify what needs to be done to enable employee to return to work. As if a phased return would assist.

1. Follow OH advice and support her to return to work.

If you proactively manage her and keep checking in 1:2:1s and adjusting workload it will support you to show you have done everything you can.

NOTE: going on holiday etc can help with stress etc. but there are employees who use the system. Use the system to counteract someone who is using the system.

I was off with stress. I went hillwalking, mountain biking, other outdoor activities. Staying at home stewing about the cause of the stress would have made things worse - I wanted to take my mind off it. Equally, I was also seeing an OccHealth-arranged counsellor two times a week to help me deal with and manage the source of the stress (bullying) and engaging with HR on the best path back to work for me.

HR should be guiding you on what approach to take and also providing support/retraining to you if you are indeed part of the issue.

She has no commitments outside of work, no children, works part time.

How can possibly know what comments she has outside of work? You mean she hasn't told you of any you consider worthy of you mentioning. You don't know what goes on in her life outside of work, not really.

It's so sad this attitude that implies women without children are sort of 'less thans' without 'real' commitments who don't deserve as much grace or benefit of the doubt as people who do have children.

Maybe she's had a recent bereavement you don't know about, maybe she has had a mental health issue that's flared up, maybe she has found her job more stressful than you realise and knows you view her as 'just' opening mail and answering phones so didn't feel able to communicate that stress to you until it manifested itself in a mental health crisis.

Follow the process. If you don't know the process, you should be asking for immediate retraining for your role internally. It's likely to be a lot more fruitful than asking on MN. It's a bit shocking you're managing a team but are unsure of the policy and procedure to follow.