Why is it not ok to have openly high expectations of DC

[Tigersteakpie]

Ok so I've been thinking about this all day and I'm still not sure about the psychology behind this.

We are in a grammar school area, not super competitive but you know. It's grammar school.

My eldest DS is about to go into y5. We have started some home tutoring over the summer (using an online 11+ prep thing) and from December onwards he'll be tutored 1:1 once a week as well.

Our DS is not a genius, he's probably slightly above average. But he works hard and has a good attitude. We are keen for him to go to grammar school if he can. We are not pushing it on him at all, but the grammar schools are significantly better than the comprehensives around here, so naturally we'd like him to go of possible.

I'd say that around 50% of his classmates are also being tutored either by parents/online things or by actual tutors.

But there seems to be this unspoken rule that it's NEVER EVER DISCUSSED. Not even if there are a group of say 3 of us together who all are in the same boat, tutoring and begining to prep to take the 11+.

It's almost like it's boastful to even say you are taking it? To admit that you'd hope your child might stand a chance? To admit that actually you would quite like your DC to do well if they can.

On the flip side he also plays a sport. He's pretty good and plays for a localish team that do quite well. There is a LOT of talk about how well the DC do at sports/musical things/extra curricular things.

I just don't get it. Is it just where I live? It's not even as if it's me talking about it loads so people openly avoid it. It's just never mentioned!!!

The grammar schools get better results because they're selective - they're catering to a narrower ability range. It's always easier to do better in academic tests when you're not trying to be all things to all people.

Quite a few comps have a 'grammar stream' for that reason.

Phineyj - surely you tealise a hreat many people have very strong opinions against private and grammar education? Not all of them will just zip it to spare your discomfort. It's not like this was a person close to you. You should be prepared to occasionally take some criticism on the chin.

Also in my area there are very few selective schools but many high performing comprehensives. So only a tiny proportion of children even in middle class schools take the entrance exams and fewer even get in. I presume the standard needed to succeed is way above the 11 plus pass rate. In fact I know you can "pass" but still end up on a long waiting list.

It depends on what those expectations are.

The high expectations I have for my daughter is that she will work hard, do her best, be kind and considerate of others, but fight her corner when she needs to.

If she ends up being a cleaner, or if she ends up being a doctor is quite irrelevant to me, as long as she is doing something she loves and gives it her all. She has the potential to go into one of the high paying professions but if she chooses something else because it makes her happy, I’ll consider her to be a success.

Perhaps it's guilt about propping up a two-tier education system that embeds a greater chance of success for people who have got money...

@Chicchicchicchiclana because they do..... Local grammar gets 91% grade 5 and above. Local comps get 29% and 19%. Their progress 8 scores are below average and we'll below average.

So yeah, the grammar school gets better results.

But why? Not just "because they do". Come on, show us your critical thinking skills.

DH was a school governor of the local primary and raised this with the school. They loved celebrating sporting achievements but any sign of academic achievement was seen as showing off and deeply disapproved of. He pointed out that lots of geekier kids never excelled at sport so academics was where they had a chance to shine and why should they feel ashamed of it. The Headmaster had no answer.

With 11+ I do think it's important not to make it into a big thing as they don't want to feel stupid if they fail it. We phrased it as - this school likes you to sit an exam in things you don't get taught at school so a tutor will show you what they are. But we haven't decided which would be the best school for you yet. DC were lucky and passed 11+ but it is a gamble. We did a lot of explaining that the test shows how well you do on a single day, it's not a measure of how clever you are overall in life. Children that age should never feel such massive pressure.

They get better results because they cream off the kids who do better. I can't believe you haven't worked that out!!
I'm very very against selective education. Chose not to live in Kent so we wouldn't have to enter their school system.

I am definitely begining to understand why people keep quiet about it though.

I genuinely had no idea it was so divisive. I assumed everyone would want their kid to go there if they could. I not understand this isn't the case.

Perhaps in other areas the difference between the Grammars and comps isn't so stark? Our local Grammars are not as bad as some but they do not get good results.

You didn't realise there were people who are against grammar and private education, even if they are nice middle class people with money? Well every thread is an education on Mumsnet!

@chicchicchicchiclana it's because they are more intelligent to start with. I get that. But it's also surely because the children are as a result also less likely to be disruptive and therefore all more able to learn. Also I guess teaching is easier as less behaviour to manage, more teaching and all on a similar level.

I get that its not fair, but that's the systems fault.

I am not going to pretend I wouldn't rather have that for my son!

Move to Hampshire folks! No grammars, none of this angst! Fantastic comps that cater for all

No, I really didn't. I knew not everyone agreed, of course. But thought they were few and far between. This thread has been enlightening.

In my culture there is none of this at all. Education is the most important thing and you use your pointy elbows to get everything you can for your DC and you work them hard. I'm more measured as I was bought up here, but I feel conflicted, culturally.

I feel sorry for people in grammar areas, I really do. Even the bog standard ones, let alone the super selectives. I'm so glad I didn't have to contemplate the stress of making my children doing those awful "weeding out the riff raff" tests. They had to go to school with the disruptive kids, the less intelligent kids, the deprived kids. A good preparation for actual real life.

So 9% of their exam passes are not 5 and above, despite them taking the "creme de la creme". That's not so impressive. That could mean a few who passed the 11 plus get no high grades GCSEs.

However 29% at the comp is appalling. It's much much higher round here for all the schools.

On principle, I'm completely anti private education and selective schools by the way. But I can see you don't have much choice for good comprehensives where you are. So don't blame you for trying to get your son into the grammar.

chichi yes of course I realise that. I also consider it very rude indeed to deliberately extract information from someone so you can harangue them at length in a situation where they can't escape. It's not something I would do, however strongly I felt about an issue. There's a time and a place! Mumsnet I guess .

Don't worry too much OP, children from loving and secure families tend to do OK even if they don't get into a grammar school.

In fairness, we are rural so can probably get a space at the further away comp where the pass mark is 44%. We would genuinely be ok with it, but obviously I'd still rather the grammar.

Tutoring/passing the 11+ is no better than paying a premium to live in a fancy neighborhood with a better comp? We are next to a town with great comps. But we can't afford the extra 150k to live there. We can afford a few k to tutor though.

Onelifeonly - the comp is not a comp in a grammar school area.

Oh also harangue me all you like. The whole point of this thread is that im ok with my choices and proud of them!!! We can disagree. I'm also ok with that and understand people have different opinions.

@Chicchicchicchiclana i think that depends, in Birmingham the grammars only take 6% so fair enough to call the others comps. But some areas I believe it's a third.

Tiger the relevant question is how do DC like your son do at the schools that are available? An average is just that, an average. All schools have some DC who get top grades.

It's worth asking other parents with DC in relevant schools what they think of the behaviour management, as that's crucial to how easy it is to learn.

Grammars can also have behaviour issues, speaking from experience.

I realise it is hard at the moment with limited visits to schools in person, but you and your son should be able to get a "feel" for where would suit him best, with some research.

I am also happy with my choices. I tend to assume that other people have made the ones that suit them best, even if they're not the ones that I'd make.

I have got a relative in the religion business who essentially took over a failing local school. Through hard work and contacts he has made it much better. His DC now attend it. Local DC have a better school. As long as they don't mind a thorough evangelical education along with the improvements.

The system here is a mad fudge and whatever you do, someone will disapprove.

How can anyone talk about choice on the subject of education when you are discussing private education (not possible for the vast majority) and grammar (also not possible for the vast majority). You can't talk about other people making "choices" where none exist.