Thinking about how Mumsnet changes language - would you know what 'sticky wishes' means and when did you first hear it?

[SarahAndQuack]

That's it really.

If you know what the phrase means, or you've heard it, when would you say you first heard it? Was it on here or somewhere else?

(I am loosely asking this for research purposes, but only fairly loosely!).

@SpindleWhorl

Interesting, *@Mousetown*. I thought IWBU to feel like that all these years! Maybe I can ask here something that I certainly wouldn't ask on a Conception thread, but why do groups of women choose to infantilise themselves like this? Is it a 'belonging to a club' thing? As in, if you want the support, you have to use the language?

I mean I suppose lots of people would say it's harmless, but I think it's quite constraining; and I'd hate it to cross over into medical practice further. It's bad enough already. (Can give examples, but I'm sure most people have their own!)

I don't have a good answer. I don't think I find the language as upsetting/patronising as you and some others do, and I also feel really strongly that if some people find it helpful, that's their right.

I have more of a personal issue with 'cute' objects and pregnancy loss - you know, like people will say 'name a star for your lost baby'. It absolutely works for some people but I don't like it personally.

There's a researcher, Linda Layne, who did a study of pregnancy loss culture about twenty years ago, and she found that, really consistently, people gravitate towards using little, cute objects to remember lost pregnancies - stars, butterflies, that sort of thing. They have a sort of appropriateness in being small and precious. Lots of people talk about angels. Then another researcher, Sianne Ngai, did some work (not explicitly about pregnancy loss) where she argues that things that are 'cute' are implicitly child-like, and prompt a sort of maternal response. Which would also make sense here.

But I agree, there's a flip side that it can seem infantalising, and for me personally, I feel uncomfortable the way that this whole discourse/imagery seems to reinforce a very stereotyped version of femininity - pretty, cutesy, etc.

I ended up researching pregnancy loss because I found that much more comforting that the existing language. So basically what I want to do is to see if I can find other strategies for women to process/mourn losses, that aren't limited to cutesy language. If that language works for someone, fine: but it'd be good to have more options out there.

@SmallPrawnEnergy

Thinking about how Mumsnet changes language It's certainly been in use on MN for a long time, but I've also seen it in hashtags on instagram. I think in this case it’s not MN “changing” language, because as you can see lots of us have used MN for years and never came across this phrase. It’s more likely specific to infertility / tcc boards on MN and outside of MN, rather than MN as a whole, introducing phrases to a very niche group of people’s vocabulary.

YY, that interests me. I didn't start using the TTC boards for a year or two when I joined MN and I think I first heard the phrase outside them, but it's a looong time ago and I wouldn't swear to it.

I don't have any reason to think the phrase originated on MN, just that's where I first heard it and I thought some posters might know where it came from first.

@SpindleWhorl

So, like a women's coded language? Do men ever use it?

This is so interesting.

I've seen a few men use it on instagram, interestingly, though I've also seen even stronger reactions against it from men.

If that language works for someone, fine: but it'd be good to have more options out there.

I've always sought security in the comfort of knowledge, specifically in using medicalised and clinical language as much as possible. It probably makes me sounds quite detached or 'in denial' but I'm not.

Most doctors / midwives / nurses do pick up on this pretty quickly, but not always. Some have been a bit patronising (even when I'm clearly asking questions about symptoms, results etc) and have indulged in a bit of the 'diddums' language themselves.

But you're asking about support groups, so I'll not go on.

@SarahAndQuack sorry I can't quote your reply, I think it's partly a self preservation thing - stopping yourself from getting too involved and excited by getting sucked in to the discussions and language, because you know it can end somewhere dark. When you've had a pregnancy loss or medicalised pregnancy I think sometimes you feel like you're on the outside looking in at all these happy excited newly pregnant mummies joining their ante natal groups and planning their baby showers and using the lingo and getting the pregnancy photo shoots etc. And it's an age thing too I think, as you go through life and get pregnant and babies and keep trying before you know it you're 38 not 28 and the shiny newness of TTC and pregnancy has all worn off and you just want your child in your arms.

Out of interest OP are you pregnant now, is that what's inspired this discussion? If so I hope it all works out for you and if not I hope it happens soon. After 4 consecutive losses it was very high strength vitamin D and progesterone that worked for me.

I posted yesterday to say I'd never heard of this expression (my DC are teens so its all a long time ago now) but I have come across boobed, boob group, rainbow baby and others and I dislike them, I find them twee and infantilising. Conception, pregnancy, birth, feeding, some of the most important processes of human life reduced to these phrases, then we wonder why the medical profession don't always take women's health issues seriously. I do get the need for a euphemism in difficult times (passed away for example) but these phrases trivialise important parts of human life unnecessarily IMO.

@SpindleWhorl

If that language works for someone, fine: but it'd be good to have more options out there.

I've always sought security in the comfort of knowledge, specifically in using medicalised and clinical language as much as possible. It probably makes me sounds quite detached or 'in denial' but I'm not.

Most doctors / midwives / nurses do pick up on this pretty quickly, but not always. Some have been a bit patronising (even when I'm clearly asking questions about symptoms, results etc) and have indulged in a bit of the 'diddums' language themselves.

But you're asking about support groups, so I'll not go on.

YY, same. I like clinical language. I want to believe there's some kind of third option, though, that's neither twee nor so clinical it could feel offputting (because there's nothing worse than hearing a doctor say something and having no idea what it means, and that happens too!).

I'm not really asking about support groups, just trying to explain why I am asking this question.

[quote BastardMonkfish]@SarahAndQuack sorry I can't quote your reply, I think it's partly a self preservation thing - stopping yourself from getting too involved and excited by getting sucked in to the discussions and language, because you know it can end somewhere dark. When you've had a pregnancy loss or medicalised pregnancy I think sometimes you feel like you're on the outside looking in at all these happy excited newly pregnant mummies joining their ante natal groups and planning their baby showers and using the lingo and getting the pregnancy photo shoots etc. And it's an age thing too I think, as you go through life and get pregnant and babies and keep trying before you know it you're 38 not 28 and the shiny newness of TTC and pregnancy has all worn off and you just want your child in your arms.

Out of interest OP are you pregnant now, is that what's inspired this discussion? If so I hope it all works out for you and if not I hope it happens soon. After 4 consecutive losses it was very high strength vitamin D and progesterone that worked for me. [/quote]
Yes, I can see how it'd be self-preservation. I am 36 but know very much what you mean! And no, I'm not pregnant, but thanks for asking. I'm sorry for your losses, too. I had four miscarriages, then the clinic put me on blood thinners/progesterone, but I just didn't fall pregnant. At some point we might try IVF (I'm in a same-sex relationship), but it's been a bit rocky with covid.

The reason for posting is just to try to get people's responses and to help me think through it all.

I've been on mumsnet since 2002 and not come across that phrase. I was on Babyworld before that.

I think it's partly a self preservation thing - stopping yourself from getting too involved and excited by getting sucked in to the discussions and language, because you know it can end somewhere dark.

This makes sense to me, I was trying to find a way to articulate it. I struggle with the ttc boards now because I feel like the ghost of pregnancy past, in a "here she is to ruin the day with loss and misery" Even on the ttc after MC threads I feel like I don't "fit in" because I've also had a second trimester TFMR. My expectation now is that a pregnancy for me would end in loss, so there's no point getting excited. And yet I persist in trying definition of madness anyone?

I think finding language that’s somewhere between cutesy and overly clinical is important but we’re restricted by the words we have.

With my first missed miscarriage found at the 12 week scan which we walked into blissfully happy and unaware we, and the staff, were jumping between “I’m so sorry you’ve lost your baby Anne” and “please sign this form to remove the retained products of conception” which just about did my head in at the time.

The local EPU uses leaflets from the miscarriage association which are excellent and fill some of the gaps left by the fractured NHS processes.

By the time I had another mmc and needed more surgery I’d had a couple of natural mcs and was pretty hardened to the whole thing and used to the language but the first time you go through the whole thing it’s shocking. At my first booking appointment it was all hearts and flowers and what felt even then like premature chatter about skin to skin at birth, boobs, bonding with dad (in our case), aromatherapy during labour and constant talk of “baby” as if there were a separate person in the room. I was 7 weeks at that point and it was very OTT. A few weeks later it was all over and “baby” was now a failed pregnancy but inconveniently not a spontaneous abortion as my stupid body hadn’t realised what had happened and I was planning to buy maternity jeans and pick names.

Not sure if any of that is relevant or chimes, sorry it’s come out like a bit of a rambling rant.

@SemiFeralDalek, that sounds very rough, I am so sorry.

@AnneLovesGilbert - yes! I know there's been discussion of terms like 'products on conception' that sound people find really jarring and upsetting. And I've known people be really upset when a miscarriage is referred to as a 'spontaneous abortion' - which is is, but if you don't know the term it could be upsetting.

There's a very weird kind of cognitive dissonance IMO - on the one hand, as you say, everyone wants to talk about 'baby' as if 'baby' is already here and there's no possible reason to worry; on the other, if you do lose a pregnancy, there's often an awful lot of implicit 'oh but you shouldn't have got attached'. Which I find particularly bullshit. There was a good article in the Guardian a while back about how the rule about not telling people before 12 weeks can be actively unhelpful for some people, because it means no one knows what you're going through as no one knows you're pregnant. Personally I never wanted to tell anyone, but I haven't been pregnant for years now, and it did make me think if I ever did get pregnant again, I might do things differently.

I didn't find your reply a rant at all (mine perhaps is!). It's really useful. I am so grateful to everyone who's replied.