Could the Gillick Competence test be used on our kids to ensure vaccinations in school?

[steakandcheeseplease]

I feel like I have to preface this with I believe that covid exists, I've been jabbed, family members have had it (luckily all still here), I believe in long covid - I think my father and neighbour have it - so I don't get accused of being a conspiracy nutter.

I think Good Morning Britain went to far this morning, I'm getting a bit suspicious of 'suggestions' being talking about on TV, especially this show as I think they are really testing the waters to how the public will react/behave. And we have seen time after time when people say 'that won't happen, its implemented a few weeks/months later.

This morning they were talking about 16/17 year olds having the vaccine to potentially stop the class bubbles bursting. (This in its self is another thread) & Dr Hilary actually gave incorrect information but it was pointed out and he apologised.

However Adil ray, one of the presenters brought up the Gillick Competency test and this could be used to by pass parents who don't want their children to be vaccinated. Some studies claim that the GC test can be used from 11.5 years old.

So potentially, if this was passed/implemented your child could decide at 11.5 that they will have the vaccination with out your consent.

Vaccinations for younger children will happen. It will probably take place in school and we will be given the option of opting out ( I hope)

Allowing children to use the GC test in this circumstance is a terrible idea. This is not a medical treatment that has been used for years and is completely sound. We are still discovering what this vaccine does. Our children do still need our guidance over this.

We must be really wary of not allowing our emotions surrounding Covid to set a precedence we will not be able to undo. By allowing the government or schools to bypass parental consent we are giving up our parental rights.

You might agree in this circumstance that its acceptable, but what about if the government see how well that worked and decide that they want to lower teenage pregnancies and use these new powers to start giving our young girls birth control injections in school ? What if they ask our children if they want to be part of a new drug trial? Young people are easily manipulated, I've worked with children long enough to know that most things can be easily sold to them if given in the right light.

If your happy for your child to have the vaccine, thats your choice and you should afford that choice to other parents and always advocate pro choice in regards to this vaccine - even if you think every one should have it. Because your not only taking others parents rights away, you will complicit in taking your own away.

Its really concerned me that this was raised on a breakfast show whilst young people are getting ready for school.

@Orf1abc

Gillick competency is based upon a child having full, accurate information to make an informed decision. That in itself is fine.

Your issue is that the information they're being provided with is not full and unbiased. Children (and adults) are being influenced by incomplete (and at times, misleading) information. I'd agree that is not appropriate, but it is an issue with the general population, not specific to children.

I agree. Anyone regardless of age is making a decision based on available evidence. The ability to make that decision is what GC is about.

Children get very little benefit from this vaccine

Because their lives haven’t been affected throughout this pandemic?
Their education hasn’t been interrupted? They haven’t been stopped from seeing their friends - with much damage to their mental health?
They haven’t lost family members far sooner than they would have?
The effect on children is grave.
If they are deemed Gillick competent they absolutely should be able to make the decision for themselves.

Gillick competence is about a child being competent to make a decision about a particular medical intervention i.e have sufficient understanding of the risks, benefits, likely outcomes etc. Gillick competence isn't all or nothing - it depends on the treatment and the child's understanding of it which can both vary. You don't just reach 11.5 and become Gillick competent. You could potentially argue that the greater unknown risks of the covid vaccine mean that it's harder to come to a conclusion than for other more routine vaccines hence a child that could decide about an HPV vaccine might not be competent to make a decision on the covid vaccine. However that is a case by case thing and it stretches the imagination to think most 14+ yrs olds wouldn't.

@Doveyouknow

Gillick competence is about a child being competent to make a decision about a particular medical intervention i.e have sufficient understanding of the risks, benefits, likely outcomes etc. Gillick competence isn't all or nothing - it depends on the treatment and the child's understanding of it which can both vary. You don't just reach 11.5 and become Gillick competent. You could potentially argue that the greater unknown risks of the covid vaccine mean that it's harder to come to a conclusion than for other more routine vaccines hence a child that could decide about an HPV vaccine might not be competent to make a decision on the covid vaccine. However that is a case by case thing and it stretches the imagination to think most 14+ yrs olds wouldn't.

Again how can you fully understand the risks when the data isn't available yet

Ooo, I hope so!

Again how can you fully understand the risks when the data isn't available yet

The nobody should have made the choice to be vaccinated surely?

I think you are doing a great disservice to young people if you start telling them they aren’t able to make their own choices about their bodies. Yes talk about pros and cons with them, encourage them to look at all the information. But don’t try to prevent them from having the final decision about what is best for them

@ReachedTheEndofCake

Children get very little benefit from this vaccine

Because their lives haven’t been affected throughout this pandemic?
Their education hasn’t been interrupted? They haven’t been stopped from seeing their friends - with much damage to their mental health?
They haven’t lost family members far sooner than they would have?
The effect on children is grave.
If they are deemed Gillick competent they absolutely should be able to make the decision for themselves.

See this is what is bonkers.

You'd give a child a vaccine despite it giving them little health benefits - Because some one they know died

You'd give a child a vaccine despite it giving them little health benefits -
because they were stopped seeing their friend (even though their friends are other kids and don't need the vaccine either..

You'd give a child a vaccine despite it giving them little health benefits - because their education was disrupted.. (maybe they should stop sending them home from school..)

So really your saying your giving child a vaccine they don't physically need need just because they want to get back to normality and some one they knew passed away.

You've just proved my point.

My 15 year old will make her own mind up - she's done her research - pros and cons and decided she wants it and short of physically restraining her and locking her in her room nothing I could say would change her mind!!! . However, she really wants to be a biochemist so this sort of thing genuinely interests her, I think she's more clued up than me on it.

DS is 8 and I suspect that even if he were 11 (or possibly even 15 but that's a long way away) I'd be hesitant about him making the decision with no guidance. He's a bit more laid back than DD ever was at 8 though.

I do think 11 is too soon. At 14 or 15 most of them seem to settle on things themselves but at 11 they're fairly easy to influence.

I've had both jabs but I'm still in two minds about children having it.

@Sirzy

Again how can you fully understand the risks when the data isn't available yet

The nobody should have made the choice to be vaccinated surely?

I think you are doing a great disservice to young people if you start telling them they aren’t able to make their own choices about their bodies. Yes talk about pros and cons with them, encourage them to look at all the information. But don’t try to prevent them from having the final decision about what is best for them

As adults we can make best guess judgments on the outcomes. For some adults the risk outweighed the possibility of death.

Children do not have that risk. And really can a child agree to a vaccine that could potentially make them ill or have a life limiting effect (swine flu vaccine causing narcolepsy)when actually they didn't need it - because the data just wasn't in.

'Have the vaccine because you can see your friends'
"have the vaccine because you can stay in school'
'Have the vaccine and you can go to festivals'

Obviously young people are wanting to take it because it equals freedom. Despite the evidence that these vaccines are truly safe not being in yet.

It's several separate issues that don't have one neat answer.

The Adil Ray mention in your post - using the GC test to bypass parents that have already said no sounds wrong. It sounds like a child will be approached, and offered a vaccine - not necessarily clear to the child their parent has actively disagreed to it. Can't imagine the conversation is going to go 'here Flossie, your mum hasn't signed the consent form, but would you like the vaccine for covid-19?'

Approaching a child to offer medical care is a different scenario to the child making the initial contact and requesting a vaccine, procedure, birth control or medicine. An emergency scenario is different again.

If parent and child have opposing views on medical care, surely the first step would be to bring them to agreement (in a non-emergency scenario) not declare the child competent or otherwise and railroad over the parent's or child's wishes.

The reasons why or why not a vaccine are kinda by the by - I could reject it because its not pink - as long as its evident I understand the benefits/risks of having/not having it.

OP do you want to be my new bestie as right now you exactly share my thoughts and I feel like everyone else is mad

Why is wanting freedom not a valid reason to have a vaccine? I think it's a very good reason. I'd take a small risk of something unknown to be able to go in holiday again.
It's a quality of life issue. I'd rather die of a blood clot than continue with the current joyless, state of fear existence.

If parent and child have opposing views on medical care, surely the first step would be to bring them to agreement (in a non-emergency scenario) not declare the child competent or otherwise and railroad over the parent's or child's wishes.

I disagree with this. Body autonomy is not something that is negotiated, it is something that person holds for themselves, unless they lack capacity.

You are severely underestimating the damage done to children who have lost parents and close family members, and the damage done to their mental health in so many ways linked to the pandemic, not to mention those families who have lost jobs and income due to this thing etc etc.
(And I do agree with you they shouldn’t be sending whole groups/years home from school to isolate now with no positive result)

It’s not about them playing with their friends is it? Come on. This is affecting children and adults alike much more than their individual physical risk. Especially teenagers, who we are discussing here.

”because someone they know died” how seriously callous. I’m glad you have seemingly never lost anyone close to you, especially as a child.

A child can not apply critical thinking to something that is still in its infancy of trials

A GC competent child is just as capable as an average adult of doing the necessary critical thinking about this, otherwise they wouldn’t be deemed GC! All of us who have been vaccinated have taken a chance, based on what we know to date that this is the right thing to do. Why should we not allow competent, critically thinking, u-18s the chance to do the same if they are capable?

There’s an awful lot of people incapable of high level critical thinking, that’s not the standard.

Yes it should apply. At 14/15 young people can be shown information, statistics etc and make a decision, it's an excellent lesson in maths, stats, pshe etc. Done well it will result in some going against parental wishes both ways because it is complicated, and like most complex issues it can be interpreted both ways.

At 16 they have medical autonomy anyway

Ps the ethical issue is very similar to rubella and mumps, both usually mild in children but not nice in teens/adults/pregnant women. We vaccinate babies for the greater good

@Stompythedinosaur

If parent and child have opposing views on medical care, surely the first step would be to bring them to agreement (in a non-emergency scenario) not declare the child competent or otherwise and railroad over the parent's or child's wishes.

I disagree with this. Body autonomy is not something that is negotiated, it is something that person holds for themselves, unless they lack capacity.

This.

We teach children about bodily autonomy from a very early age. Certainly by the time they have capacity and can be deemed GC it should be absolute.

@MyDcAreMarvel

If children are mature enough to care more about others than their parents do that is a positive thing. GC is already used in schools with the HPV vaccine so I don’t understand your point.

Not at our school- we declined hpv and the school totally accepted that and put no pressure on ds whatsoever

It’s not about putting pressure on young people. If you DS had said in school “but I want to have it” then it would have been a case for deeming if he is gillick competent.

@ReachedTheEndofCake

You are severely underestimating the damage done to children who have lost parents and close family members, and the damage done to their mental health in so many ways linked to the pandemic, not to mention those families who have lost jobs and income due to this thing etc etc. (And I do agree with you they shouldn’t be sending whole groups/years home from school to isolate now with no positive result)

It’s not about them playing with their friends is it? Come on. This is affecting children and adults alike much more than their individual physical risk. Especially teenagers, who we are discussing here.

”because someone they know died” how seriously callous. I’m glad you have seemingly never lost anyone close to you, especially as a child.

I did. My dad dropped dead in the street suddenly when I was at the lower end of the age group in question. Normality helped me through grief. Taking away support mechanisms from children be it for grief or any other difficulty should have been a scandal and not quietly dismissed with "children are resiliant" as it has been for the past year+.

That's what exactly it
I could refuse to sign the consent form but if DD went ahead and presented herself for the vaccine and it appeared to the health professional administering the vaccine that she had capacity to make the decision then she would still be vaccinated whatever my opinion.
So in the end it's her decision at 14 and not mine which is fair enough because it's her body that she has to live in.

If your happy for your child to have the vaccine, thats your choice and you should afford that choice to other parents and always advocate pro choice in regards to this vaccine - even if you think every one should have it. Because your not only taking others parents rights away, you will complicit in taking your own away.

I'm happy for my child to have the vaccine, and my child is happy to have it. If you child is happy to have it, I am happy for them to over rule you and do the right thing

Is it not Fraser competence now? I believe Mrs Gillick complained about her name being used because this idea came about as a result of her losing her case. In response, Judge Fraser, who made the original ruling said that his name could be used.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Why is wanting freedom not a valid reason to have a vaccine? I think it's a very good reason. I'd take a small risk of something unknown to be able to go in holiday again. It's a quality of life issue. I'd rather die of a blood clot than continue with the current joyless, state of fear existence.

Oh dear god. Its comments like these that make me wonder WTAF.

Your post is actually IN agreement with the OP. YOU can choose if your children have the vaccine. This whole post is about the possibility that children 11 up are given the GC test in school and given the vaccine against their parents consent.