Could the Gillick Competence test be used on our kids to ensure vaccinations in school?

[steakandcheeseplease]

I feel like I have to preface this with I believe that covid exists, I've been jabbed, family members have had it (luckily all still here), I believe in long covid - I think my father and neighbour have it - so I don't get accused of being a conspiracy nutter.

I think Good Morning Britain went to far this morning, I'm getting a bit suspicious of 'suggestions' being talking about on TV, especially this show as I think they are really testing the waters to how the public will react/behave. And we have seen time after time when people say 'that won't happen, its implemented a few weeks/months later.

This morning they were talking about 16/17 year olds having the vaccine to potentially stop the class bubbles bursting. (This in its self is another thread) & Dr Hilary actually gave incorrect information but it was pointed out and he apologised.

However Adil ray, one of the presenters brought up the Gillick Competency test and this could be used to by pass parents who don't want their children to be vaccinated. Some studies claim that the GC test can be used from 11.5 years old.

So potentially, if this was passed/implemented your child could decide at 11.5 that they will have the vaccination with out your consent.

Vaccinations for younger children will happen. It will probably take place in school and we will be given the option of opting out ( I hope)

Allowing children to use the GC test in this circumstance is a terrible idea. This is not a medical treatment that has been used for years and is completely sound. We are still discovering what this vaccine does. Our children do still need our guidance over this.

We must be really wary of not allowing our emotions surrounding Covid to set a precedence we will not be able to undo. By allowing the government or schools to bypass parental consent we are giving up our parental rights.

You might agree in this circumstance that its acceptable, but what about if the government see how well that worked and decide that they want to lower teenage pregnancies and use these new powers to start giving our young girls birth control injections in school ? What if they ask our children if they want to be part of a new drug trial? Young people are easily manipulated, I've worked with children long enough to know that most things can be easily sold to them if given in the right light.

If your happy for your child to have the vaccine, thats your choice and you should afford that choice to other parents and always advocate pro choice in regards to this vaccine - even if you think every one should have it. Because your not only taking others parents rights away, you will complicit in taking your own away.

Its really concerned me that this was raised on a breakfast show whilst young people are getting ready for school.

@MilkTwoSugarsThanks

A child can not apply critical thinking to something that is still in its infancy of trials.

Nor can most adults it would seem 🤷🏼‍♀️

Seriously, if I had to sign a permission form for my 17 year old to have the jab I'd wonder what the hell the college was thinking.

Not really talking about 17 year olds here, which you'd know if you'd actually bothered to read the OP

You would not be 'handing your parental rights over to the the state' you'd be handing them to your own child if they were old enough and mature enough to make their own decision. Like you do about a lot of stuff gradually over time. That's normal parenting and growing up.

What age to people think would be OK for them to make their own decision? Surely by 16 you are not going around dictating to them stuff like this? I happen to personally think that my 14 year old can make her own decision after discussion. My 10 year old I would say could not.

@TinaYouFatLard

I can’t believe parents are okay with this.

Have people been so brainwashed by Covid that they are willing to hand their parental rights over to THIS state?

This is the end of fucking days.

Or you are letting young people make their own decisions about their own bodies.

TinaYouFatLard you don’t have parental rights in England and Wales. You have parental responsibility. Which means you safeguard children until they can do so themselves. When they are competent, that becomes their responsibility and they do have rights over their bodies and decisions.

You’re not handing anything over to the State.

If my child is competent to make a decision about medical treatment and understand the consequences, then they should.
My teenagers are able to, I think. My needle phobic pre-teen is not.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

You would not be 'handing your parental rights over to the the state' you'd be handing them to your own child if they were old enough and mature enough to make their own decision. Like you do about a lot of stuff gradually over time. That's normal parenting and growing up.

What age to people think would be OK for them to make their own decision? Surely by 16 you are not going around dictating to them stuff like this? I happen to personally think that my 14 year old can make her own decision after discussion. My 10 year old I would say could not.

But how can they do that when not enough data has been collected?

@MyDcAreMarvel

If children are mature enough to care more about others than their parents do that is a positive thing. GC is already used in schools with the HPV vaccine so I don’t understand your point.

Do you really not see the difference here? The covid vaccines are only cleared for emergency use at present, trials won’t conclude before 2023

I'm on a "not yet" stance. My oldest is 10 so a school year or two off from the age range being discussed. I am vaccinated (x2) but the personal risk/benefit for me as a mature adult is different to his.

I had temporary unpleasant side effects after my first jab, an energy drain that left me struggling to walk for a short time. The known range of temporary side effects is more common in Coronavirus vaccinations than most other vaccines, and the potential long term effects unclear due to the rapid release.

In terms of temporary side effects, I am happier if DS gives his consent rather than me deciding for him. That doesn't solve the longer term doubt.

I am concerned that we may be bullied into it in order to maintain a family life with family in other European countries, and the main benefits are political rather than medical. I am not greatly concerned about the statistical outcomes of the virus on healthy children of DS's age. He may even have had the virus, and certainly had something rather nasty with a few months of post-viral fatigue in Dec '19. Community cases of the virus have been identified locally around that time despite limited samples being avaliable.

I hope that if/ when his cohort are vacvinated, the situation is clearer.
The risk/ benefit to clinically vulnerable children/ their households is different and needs evaluating seperately.

While it's not immediately on the cards, it may not stay that way.

Please don't start chipping away at Gillick Competency

Just because you don't agree doesn't take away the right of someone else to make a choice.

It's a very very slippery slope backwards to start saying what GC can be applied to and what it can't.

@DareIask

Please don't start chipping away at Gillick Competency

Just because you don't agree doesn't take away the right of someone else to make a choice.

It's a very very slippery slope backwards to start saying what GC can be applied to and what it can't.

Pease point to any post where I have stated that. I haven't. In fact ive asked that posted advocate PRO choice.

The main difference here is that we are STILL collecting data on ADULT vaccine reactions, like a poster upthread said - we only have emergency use of the vaccine. Trials won't conclude to 2023. We are IN the biggest mass trial.

There is not enough data on the effects of children for children to make an 'informed decision'. You can not apply the GC test to this as not information has been gathered.

@BogRollBOGOF

I'm on a "not yet" stance. My oldest is 10 so a school year or two off from the age range being discussed. I am vaccinated (x2) but the personal risk/benefit for me as a mature adult is different to his.

I had temporary unpleasant side effects after my first jab, an energy drain that left me struggling to walk for a short time. The known range of temporary side effects is more common in Coronavirus vaccinations than most other vaccines, and the potential long term effects unclear due to the rapid release.

In terms of temporary side effects, I am happier if DS gives his consent rather than me deciding for him. That doesn't solve the longer term doubt.

I am concerned that we may be bullied into it in order to maintain a family life with family in other European countries, and the main benefits are political rather than medical. I am not greatly concerned about the statistical outcomes of the virus on healthy children of DS's age. He may even have had the virus, and certainly had something rather nasty with a few months of post-viral fatigue in Dec '19. Community cases of the virus have been identified locally around that time despite limited samples being avaliable.

I hope that if/ when his cohort are vacvinated, the situation is clearer.
The risk/ benefit to clinically vulnerable children/ their households is different and needs evaluating seperately.

While it's not immediately on the cards, it may not stay that way.

I could have wrote this post. Im sure my dd3 and dh had it just before it all kicked off. And I agree with the rest of the post.

I think you are misunderstanding Gillick Competence, OP. No child could be judged to be able to consent if they were not competent to understand the benefits, known risks and unknown risks. They have to be able to weigh and understand all of the information properly. If they have that capacity, of course they should be able to make choices regarding their own body.

However, this is a new vaccine so I agree the unknown risks are higher than for a vaccine which has been used for decades. Anyone trying to pretend otherwise is being disingenuous imo. I personally think the unknown risks are likely to be tiny and are more than offset by the benefits, so I've had my vaccine, if that's relevant.

@steakandcheeseplease why do you think it's ok for adults to make a choice then?

Because if you're GC you're as capable of anyone else of making an informed choice

Over 16 and it's presumed a young person can consent (think if hiw contraception can be prescribed)

But the person administering the vaccine needs to be satisfied that the young person understands what they are consenting to, which is easily done in an individual full-length consultation but not so straightforward in the much shorter 'line up, check identity and consent form and jab' scenario of school based immunisations

You might agree in this circumstance that its acceptable, but what about if the government see how well that worked and decide that they want to lower teenage pregnancies and use these new powers to start giving our young girls birth control injections in school ? My 14yo has arranged to have a contraceptive implant this week. They haven't asked for my consent because her's is perfectly valid.

and yes teenage boosters are given with the young person's consent, reguardless oc parental wishes.

Ah man I swear if I see or hear that 2023 crap again people will hear bits of me splatter off the wall. Give it a sodden rest.

@traumatisednoodle

You might agree in this circumstance that its acceptable, but what about if the government see how well that worked and decide that they want to lower teenage pregnancies and use these new powers to start giving our young girls birth control injections in school ? My 14yo has arranged to have a contraceptive implant this week. They haven't asked for my consent because her's is perfectly valid.

Exactly. That’s what the Gillick case was originally about: contraception.

A 14 year old can have an abortion without parental permission. If a 14 year is deemed to understand the consequences of that - which they are - then they can understand the consequences of a vaccination.

[quote DareIask]@steakandcheeseplease why do you think it's ok for adults to make a choice then?

Because if you're GC you're as capable of anyone else of making an informed choice [/quote]
Er because they are adults...

I taught children and teenagers for many years. Despite what mummy and daddy believe children do not think like adults. Period.

In normal circumstances the young person would be given full solid facts through years of data.

Go and read what the GC test is. How can a child asses the long term impacts of their 'choice' if we don't even know what the long term impact on adults yet.

Absolutely bonkers. Are you aware the trials won't be finished to 2023?

@RandomCatGenerator. Totally different.

How can you apply GC to a vaccine thats still in its trials? You don't know the end results yet.

@traumatisednoodle

You might agree in this circumstance that its acceptable, but what about if the government see how well that worked and decide that they want to lower teenage pregnancies and use these new powers to start giving our young girls birth control injections in school ? My 14yo has arranged to have a contraceptive implant this week. They haven't asked for my consent because her's is perfectly valid.

Good for her.

I don't believe the agenda has been such that a child CAN give truly informed consent as anyone raising any concerns is just screeched at as an anti-vax Tramp-suporting loon and called stupid, thick, selfish and any other manner of insults.

If it starts to come down to it (and as a fully Covid vaccinated person myself), I will be prepared to remove my children from school for the duration of any proposed vaccination drive as I no longer trust the school or the state to put my kids' interests at all anywhere on their list of priorities.

It was the Newsround misinformation that tipped me absolutely over the edge into not trusting the information being given to the kids.

“ Deadleaf you don't even know if the vaccine is safe for adults. Data is still being gathered on that.

Ive had my jab - no ill side effect - yet. But we are both in a vaccine trial right now.

Regarding children this really may come to surprise you but Pfizer and the other are still in the trial stage. The out comes seems ok - so far but its too early for any real long term data.

I'm sure the children that developed narcolepsy through the swine flu vaccine felt it was safe too or is some collateral damage ok?”

I never used the word safe - I said tested and approved, which it will be. Nothing is “safe”. We don’t have decades to wait for a long term study unfortunately! Along the same lines though, you can’t possibly know the long term effect on a child of catching covid either. And I think it will be a choice of one or the other - eventually every person is either going to get covid or get vaccinated. Anyway, it’s not the point. The point it if a child is competent to make a decision they should be allowed to make it, covid vaccines aren’t some special case.

And I wouldn’t call any person collateral damage. But I am ok with the notion that very occasionally a child will die or be injured by a vaccine, but that we should still use that vaccine. Occasionally a child will die or be injured by a car, but we still accept people use cars to enable their modern lifestyles and convenience. I accept when I vaccinate my child against anything there’s a very small risk of harm, same as I accept there’s a risk to them crossing a road or eating a grape or taking calpol. What other choice is there? Life involves risks.

Good to see posters making the point that the vaccines are still in trial phases.

The number of children and adolescents vaccinated is very small, and of course no longer term data exists.

Dr Ros Jones (retired consultant paediatrician, with many years of experience) has published her reservations about vaccinating children and teens. It is worth reading her views.

@steakandcheeseplease
As a retired health professional I've used GC with many, inc those with learning difficulties so I think I've a pretty robust understanding.

If they're assessed as GC they can make an informed choice.

Gillick competency is based upon a child having full, accurate information to make an informed decision. That in itself is fine.

Your issue is that the information they're being provided with is not full and unbiased. Children (and adults) are being influenced by incomplete (and at times, misleading) information. I'd agree that is not appropriate, but it is an issue with the general population, not specific to children.