What exactly is wrong with ‘it’?

[CatherinedeBourgh]

I was brought up bilingual, english and a gendered language. I always loved that english had a gender neutral option, and when my mum was pg we always talked in english about the babies, so we could say it rather than he or she.

As an adult I once referred to a friend’s baby as it and he said it had offended his wife. I thought ‘whatever, she’s a bit wierd’, but on here people seem to go crazy when anyone does it.

There’s also the whole thing with people referring to others as them even it is only one person because they don’t want to disclose the gender.

So hit me with it. What exactly is so awful about ‘it’?

But people have explained the strong cultural reason? 'It' is considered to imply a less than human status. A lot of offensive language rests on implying someone else is less than a human being.

@Dilbertian

I remember being taught specifically that 'it' refers to inanimate objects and to animals, never to people. Nonetheless, you'll find children referred to as 'it' in some older literature (IIRC E Nesbit, and possibly Enid Blyton, would say things like " everyone washed its hands", whereas nowadays you would say "everyone washed their hands" or "everyone washed his or her hands".)

I'm similarly bilingual, dh speaks only English. I referred to our unborn babies as "it", whereas dh referred to them as "them". Which freaked me out, as I would constantly have dreams about twins, even though each time we knew we were having a singleton!

But while I'm happy to refer to my own baby as 'it' until it's born and I discover its sex, I wouldn't do so to someone else's baby - because of what I was taught at school.

No, E nesbit wrote 5 children and it. It was a weird magical creature, it certainly wasn't a person. The sentence 'Everyone washed its hands' would not refer to everyone's hands. Rather that everyone was washing the hands of something being referred to as it. So maybe a doll.

That surprised me too, @crockof, but actually when I googled, there is a published copy of 5 Children that includes the phrase 'the start to the gravel pit was delayed by Martha's insisting on everybody's washing its hands'.

I don't know enough about English idiom in the period to know whether that's a typo, but clearly it doesn't refer to the It of the title.

... and clearly not a typo, as elsewhere we have 'everyone got its legs kicked and its feet trodden on in the scramble to get out of the carriage'.

"it" is not the gender neutral version of she/he

you don't use "it" for people

I think there could be something about an expectation of sex in the mix. Babies and many animals do come with different sexes that may have a 'future relevance' one way or another, even if you cannot always tell this. Even some birds where it's possible to tell from different appearance (eg ducks or blackbirds).

'It' animals would include things like slugs, insects, bats. Most objects or abstracts are then 'it' - very little to suggest they have characteristics like something alive.

in case anyone cares in Hungarian there are no she/he singular 3rd person pronouns.

there's only one pronoun "ő" that could mean either sex - there's literally no translation for that word in English.

There is a strong cultural reason. The reason is that 'it', culturally, is an object. It is the same as calling the baby 'that thing'.
It implies they are less than human. When you consider a newborn baby is literally the most important thing in a new parent's life, its no wonder they would be upset at you calling them 'it'.

As to PP 'who's she? The cats mother?' my DM used to say that to us as kids. It was said if we referred to DM as 'she' in front of her. Usually when we were having a scrap tbf, and said something like 'she said you weren't allowed!'

I’m a native English speaker and I would (and do) definitely call very young or unborn children ‘it’. Including my own. We are expecting a baby and my mother and I regularly talk about When It’s Due or It’s Name. Or even say It’s A Nice Baby about someone else’s child.

I don’t see the problem. Probably rather old-fashioned English usage, but not wrong.

I agree with@GodolphinHorne that 'it' is a bit old fashioned, but not necessarily wrong or rude.

I am 60 and a native English speaker. I'm sure in the past I will have asked pregnant women 'do you know what it is yet?' Or 'have you decided what to call it yet?' Or 'when is it due?' I certainly wouldn't have been offended if someone had asked me any of those questions when I was pregnant.

I wonder whether using 'it' for an unborn child sounds ruder now because so many people find out what sex their baby is before birth that they don't think of their baby as an 'it' for very long

Sounds like you know people don't like babies and fetuses being referred to as "it" and yet you say "it" anyway to be stubborn because it's "technically correct". Maybe so but it's pretty unfeeling and you'd have to be pretty stupid to not get that.

Hmm I am trying to remember what I called my baby as I didn't know the sex until he was born. Pretty sure I used "it" to be honest. I didn't know it was offensive. Obviously if you are fairly sure what sex it is going to be from scans it's a bit rude (not that I could get worked up about it).

Come to think of it, GodolphinHorne and Fifthtimelucky are right: we do refer to other women's unborn babies as 'it' if we don't know the sex.

@poppycat10

Hmm I am trying to remember what I called my baby as I didn't know the sex until he was born. Pretty sure I used "it" to be honest. I didn't know it was offensive. Obviously if you are fairly sure what sex it is going to be from scans it's a bit rude (not that I could get worked up about it).

You just say "the baby"

I called my baby it when she was in the womb and I didn't know whether she was a girl or a boy. Once I knew I called her she.

I'm pretty sure they still sell balloons that say "it's a girl" or "it's a boy" and people probably get given these when the baby is born as often as for baby showers, so it really it just getting offended for the sake of getting offended in my opinion. I could understand if you verbally referred to a born baby as "it" then that would sound rude, but for an unborn I really don't think it matters

There are some languages, countries and cultures where they refer to people as he or she, but they refer to animals as "it". As the UK is a nation who loves cats and dogs, I find this practice really cold and unloving towards animals.

@BrilliantBetty

This just reminded me of the saying (telling off?) from childhood

"Who's 'she' the cat's Mother?!"

I can't remember why that was said, possibly older people though it was rude to refer to someone as she rather than their name?? No idea.

I wouldn't mind you calling my foetus 'it' at all. Once born, he / she / name is nicer. Wouldn't be offended though.

This is because it is rude to use “she” when discussing a third party who is also in the room. Eg “She said I couldn’t go to the park” rather than “Auntie Ann said I couldn’t go to the park” .

huh???
people refer to dogs, cats, horses & most farm animals as she/he

Yes, we do in the UK, but that's not true of all countries. Some countries and languages refer to animals as "it", and as a British person who loves animals, I sometimes hear people from other countries referring to animals as "it" and I don't like that.

@SirVixofVixHall

I never understood why it rude when grammatically it's perfectly reasonable to use a pronoun instead of the name of the person when all parties in the conversation know who "she" refers to.

to me saying that this particular bit of correct grammar is rude is just bonkers, just because the subject of the sentence is within earshot.
only the Brits🤣

@ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba

Practically all cultures, countries and languages have things which are considered rude, because they just are. In a way, it doesn't even matter why. When in another country, learn what's considered rude and don't do it. And you're on a majority British website here, so what did you expect the answers to be?

@tectonicplates

huh??? people refer to dogs, cats, horses & most farm animals as she/he

Yes, we do in the UK, but that's not true of all countries. Some countries and languages refer to animals as "it", and as a British person who loves animals, I sometimes hear people from other countries referring to animals as "it" and I don't like that.

I got my message deleted because I misunderstood yours.

and as to your lecture, you forgot the first rule of patronising: you must start post with "actually" 🤣🤣

also @tectonicplates how ironic that you criticise other languages/cultures for using "it" for animals yet can't take the same criticism.
that's just weak sauce

@tectonicplates

There are some languages, countries and cultures where they refer to people as he or she, but they refer to animals as "it". As the UK is a nation who loves cats and dogs, I find this practice really cold and unloving towards animals.

I’m a vegan so I really, really love animals but I don’t see a problem with calling an animal ‘it’