No more WFH or flexible working

[Lizzie523]

Been WFH for a year now - about 6 months ago the company MD said we had done brilliantly, was thrilled by how we had risen to the challenge etc. We were then told the future would likely be hybrid working & we all had to complete detailed consultations about our preferences RE this. Personally ive been more productive overall & I feel a mix would work well.

Imagine our shock to now be told we are all to go back to full time at the office 5 days a week. They said they would no longer consider the results of the consultations and wished they hadn't done it - many of us tried to appeal this but were just told 'no'.

I moved during the pandemic which means I am just far enough away that 5 days a week in the office is going to be a hassle (not to mention awful for the environment).

We work with a few people with young kids and it obviously isn't inclusive for disabled people either. Our main competitors have already confirmed their commitment to remote working.

Is everyone else headed back to the office or am I right in thinking most places are being more flexible now?

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

I don't understand how someone could have no childcare AND be doing school/nursery runs? Surely that means they have arranged childcare?

If someone works full time hours then school hours with no additional childcare means they haven’t arranged childcare.

Yes, it’s this.

I think some people are going to become very pissed off if Jane is never available between 3 and 4

And this. But John, whose wife is a sahm who’s got used to not having to walk. Both ends of the school day, with no flexibility from his side if I need to put something in the calendar at 9 or 3. Younger kids around all day and interrupting.

And some switching to funded only nursery when previously having had full time care in place as in the office full time.

I am not a micromanager. I’m used to having a global team. But people are taking the piss, and that will backfire.

If someone works full time hours then school hours with no additional childcare means they haven’t arranged childcare.

This depends on the culture of your organisation. I can do school pick up and log back on in the evening to make up time, my work doesn't coincide with others very often so I can arrange my diary to suit me, and it's this way for many of my organisation. Many people start at 9.30 after school drop off.

Funnily enough our organisation is largely female with a female CEO and well represented at board level, rather than making parents bend to old school norms, we've amended our working practices to enable people with families to continue to find a balance but still progress. Very successful organisation, still smashing targets, with very loyal staff. Win win.

How long does the school run take for some people? All this angst about Jane not being available between 3 and 4. I pick my DD up from school, door to door the school run takes me 12 minutes. And i use my lunch half hour for this.

So i am gone 12 minutes and the company gets back my other 18 unused minutes. My manager is happy with this. I dont think my colleagues even notice i have gone, obviously if i have a meeting i will ask someone else to pick her up.

And then DD is at home for the 30 minutes until i finish work, but she is 9 and goes to her room to play with toys or read a book or whatever she does to entertain herself.

But on the other hand i looked after my 2 year old niece the other day whilst my SIL was at an urgent hospital appointment, i think i had her for 3 hours and thought it would be fine whilst i worked.

Fuck me, how do people think they can look after a baby all day and work full time? How? I had to keep stopping work to stop her killing herself by launching off a chair, stop her bullying the dog, mute a meeting as she was screaming, trying to distract her meltdown etc. I was a wreck after 3 hours. No way could somebody work full time and look after a young child full time, it cant be done.

It was understandable when the lockdown happened as everywhere was shut but if both parents work and have a small child they need child care.

How long does the school run take for some people? All this angst about Jane not being available between 3 and 4. I pick my DD up from school, door to door the school run takes me 12 minutes. And i use my lunch half hour for this.

Good for you. You know we don’t all have schools on our doorstep, right? DD’s primary school is 2 miles away along a single track lane. Takes 30 mins to drop off/pick up on a good day.

How long does the school run take for some people? All this angst about Jane not being available between 3 and 4. I pick my DD up from school, door to door the school run takes me 12 minutes. And i use my lunch half hour for this.

Normally if it's a SAHM justifying how busy they are, it's at least 2 hours out of the day (morning and afternoon). If you're wfh and are pointing out how unobtrusive it is, as evidenced by your post, it's about 12 minutes.

(Funnily enough the morning school run does take me 12 minutes. The afternoon one takes longer as I rarely time it so that I arrive as DD comes out, so I have to hang about for a bit).

If the competitors are all doing it -there’s your answer -defect to the competition

Some school children do need proper afterschool care. Others will be sitting in their bedroom doing homework or playing games. It depends on the age and personality of the child.

But I thought that the evidence was overwhelmingly that most people did a slightly more effective job WFH?

Of course some people are cheeky and do less, but that’s true in the office too. And there should be ground rules - when i worked from home I had to be contactable at all times, and if not, have a good excuse. No way could I have got away with doing the school run!

@Blossominspring2021

But I thought that the evidence was overwhelmingly that most people did a slightly more effective job WFH?

Of course some people are cheeky and do less, but that’s true in the office too. And there should be ground rules - when i worked from home I had to be contactable at all times, and if not, have a good excuse. No way could I have got away with doing the school run!

No - the evidence is very mixed. In early pandemic there was a lot of hype about increased productivity, but views are more measured now. There are also genuine concerns about employee mental health and training/development opportunities, particularly for newer staff.

See (for example) www.forbes.com/sites/tracybrower/2021/01/17/think-productivity-with-work-from-home-is-improving-think-again-heres-what-you-must-know/?sh=2f1b62e72d67

I’d use anything. Legal rights, health and safety at work directives, environmental impact, use any tool or resource out there! Many companies are affiliated with or have standards outside of their company even if they are private.

This seems a bit much, to be honest. If you have to use any tool or resource out there to get what you want from your company would it not be better to just recognise they don't offer what you want and move on? And I say that as an enthusiastic and involved union member.

Everyone I know is adopting a hybrid approach with 2 or 3 days WFH. One friend is out the office until Jan 2022, WFH and then 1 day a week in the office. The other's role has been changed to 100% WFH and he has moved like you as well, still close enough for a 1 day a week commute for his wife's job whose office has also moved to 1 day a week in the office.

I don't know any employers who have gone back to 5 full days in the office. I wouldn't be surprised if people voted with their feet and left.

@UserAtRandom That Forbes article talks about when people were working at home and had children at home out of school. It is also an article based on opinion, not facts.
Of course, productivity was tough when many were working from home and homeschooling.
That article also plays up relationships with colleagues. For some people that is important. Personally, I do not miss it a bit. I spent every day being interrupted in the office by my manager telling me more about their personal problems.
The ideal is allowing people to wfh or be in the office as a choice.
Also the issue of collaboration. I spent yesterday in a meeting with people from all over the country but online. I know a year ago I would have been expected to spend 6 hours of travel to that same meeting for a 2 hour meeting. Yesterday we had a great meeting that took 2 hours. I also find online you don't get the same people dominating with their useless bullshit. The format seems to encourage people to make useful contributions only.
I think strategy days or similar work better face to face, but most things I find work better remotely.

@hobbyhearse you are a union member and advising someone to just leave work rather than fight? Leaving is what people in non-unionised workplaces do. Shame on you.

@LemmysAceCard

How long does the school run take for some people? All this angst about Jane not being available between 3 and 4. I pick my DD up from school, door to door the school run takes me 12 minutes. And i use my lunch half hour for this.

So i am gone 12 minutes and the company gets back my other 18 unused minutes. My manager is happy with this. I dont think my colleagues even notice i have gone, obviously if i have a meeting i will ask someone else to pick her up.

And then DD is at home for the 30 minutes until i finish work, but she is 9 and goes to her room to play with toys or read a book or whatever she does to entertain herself.

But on the other hand i looked after my 2 year old niece the other day whilst my SIL was at an urgent hospital appointment, i think i had her for 3 hours and thought it would be fine whilst i worked.

Fuck me, how do people think they can look after a baby all day and work full time? How? I had to keep stopping work to stop her killing herself by launching off a chair, stop her bullying the dog, mute a meeting as she was screaming, trying to distract her meltdown etc. I was a wreck after 3 hours. No way could somebody work full time and look after a young child full time, it cant be done.

It was understandable when the lockdown happened as everywhere was shut but if both parents work and have a small child they need child care.

You answered your own question then. A lot of people like me have nursery runs not school runs. Covid has had an impact on nursery place availability too - with many nurseries trying to be fair by not offering 5 days a week but offering everyone 3. This means as the parents of an almost 18 month old, DH and I need to cope with him for 2 days a week as we don’t have childcare at the moment. We just work outside of the usual 9-5 and on weekends too to make things up.

No, I'm suggesting that if the only way you can stay with your company is by 'using any tool or resource out there' to force them to do what you want, the company is not the best fit for you. If it is not possible to wfh it is not possible. My union fights endlessly to uphold our rights and the employer's responsibilities towards us (the public tend to hate us) but they don't defend the indefensible. Nice attempt at shaming me though and excellent attempt to put words in my mouth.

@hobbyhearse flexible working if you have an office job is something that most unions have campaigned on.

I'm sure they have @castemary. I don't think the union which represents our office grades have, because it isn't practicable for every member of those grades to have flexible working or wfh, regardless of the fact they work in offices. It would be difficult to 'use every tool or resource' without also walking straight into some job losses, which most unions seek to avoid. I guess not all office jobs are the same, which was rather the point of my original post.

So i am gone 12 minutes and the company gets back my other 18 unused minutes. My manager is happy with this. I dont think my colleagues even notice i have gone, obviously if i have a meeting i will ask someone else to pick her up.

Why not take the other 18 minutes?

Quite a few of my team have moved house during the pandemic - South east / London based employer - we all used to live in London or the Home counties. Colleagues have moved to Cornwall, Norfolk, Bristol and Cheshire.

Our company have taken the approach that flexibility is key. Although we are all sick to death of zoom meetings and enforced remote working at the moment, the idea of going back to work in an office 5 days a week just seems ridiculous. In fact they did a survey which thousands of people took part in - only 3% wanted it to go back to pre-pandemic office working. Most people wanted to work in the office 2 or 3 days a week so my organisation have stated that this kind of flexibility will be in standard Ts & Cs on-going.

I just wish more employers would be as progressive

@Pipsquiggle

Quite a few of my team have moved house during the pandemic - South east / London based employer - we all used to live in London or the Home counties. Colleagues have moved to Cornwall, Norfolk, Bristol and Cheshire.

Our company have taken the approach that flexibility is key. Although we are all sick to death of zoom meetings and enforced remote working at the moment, the idea of going back to work in an office 5 days a week just seems ridiculous. In fact they did a survey which thousands of people took part in - only 3% wanted it to go back to pre-pandemic office working. Most people wanted to work in the office 2 or 3 days a week so my organisation have stated that this kind of flexibility will be in standard Ts & Cs on-going.

I just wish more employers would be as progressive

But have they changed the contracts of current staff to reflect these new T&Cs? Because if not your team have done what OP did, except a lot worse because hers is still commutable, just a faff, whereas some of those places are not...

Can’t wait for someone to fall over a laptop cable during working hours and Sue the employer.

@Hardbackwriter yes they have changed it for all head office staff - a new blended working approach which they see will be beneficial to the organisation approach by:
Talent attraction
Retention & motivation
Diversity & inclusion
Performance
Reduced business costs

@Pipsquiggle

Quite a few of my team have moved house during the pandemic - South east / London based employer - we all used to live in London or the Home counties. Colleagues have moved to Cornwall, Norfolk, Bristol and Cheshire.

Our company have taken the approach that flexibility is key. Although we are all sick to death of zoom meetings and enforced remote working at the moment, the idea of going back to work in an office 5 days a week just seems ridiculous. In fact they did a survey which thousands of people took part in - only 3% wanted it to go back to pre-pandemic office working. Most people wanted to work in the office 2 or 3 days a week so my organisation have stated that this kind of flexibility will be in standard Ts & Cs on-going.

I just wish more employers would be as progressive

When is your employer removing London weighting payments from those who were working in London?

@Hollyhead

As a manager, on the whole people are not more productive at home. I’ve not had a single person bring me extra work they’ve done! What most people mean is that their lives are more productive because they have more time. Not something I begrudge, but it’s different from their organisation benefitting!

I'm definitely more productive. I now use the three hours I used to use commuting actually doing something useful. Working. It would soon become apparent that I was slacking in my role (within an hour or so), there is nowhere to hide!

I'm definitely more productive. I now use the three hours I used to use commuting actually doing something useful. Working. It would soon become apparent that I was slacking in my role (within an hour or so), there is nowhere to hide!

15 hours of additional work a week would be pretty noticeable output……….