No more WFH or flexible working

[Lizzie523]

Been WFH for a year now - about 6 months ago the company MD said we had done brilliantly, was thrilled by how we had risen to the challenge etc. We were then told the future would likely be hybrid working & we all had to complete detailed consultations about our preferences RE this. Personally ive been more productive overall & I feel a mix would work well.

Imagine our shock to now be told we are all to go back to full time at the office 5 days a week. They said they would no longer consider the results of the consultations and wished they hadn't done it - many of us tried to appeal this but were just told 'no'.

I moved during the pandemic which means I am just far enough away that 5 days a week in the office is going to be a hassle (not to mention awful for the environment).

We work with a few people with young kids and it obviously isn't inclusive for disabled people either. Our main competitors have already confirmed their commitment to remote working.

Is everyone else headed back to the office or am I right in thinking most places are being more flexible now?

is it fair that someone should be allowed to wfh simply because they can afford to live somewhere that allows for an adequate setup compared to a colleague doing the exact same role who really wants to work from home but cant because they only have the kitchen table to perch on

I don't understand this whinging about it not being fair. Since when has employment ever been about what's fair, some jobs pay more, some have better conditions, that's life. Next people will be comparing commutes and saying "it's not fair" that someone lives within walking distance whilst another pays for the train. You don't "punish" everyone with artificial universal policy because it's not accessible to everyone.

I'm expecting a builder to come on next and say everyone should work outside as it's not fair he/she has to work outside 🙄

Well they'll probably regret when folk start leaving for jobs that are more flexible and allow some wfh.

My employer is running pilots from August to see how this is going to work and then start to bring some staff back in from October. The idea of bringing in the roles that are more difficult to do from home. I don't expect I'll be back until after Christmas. It will be a blended working with some wfh but we haven't been given details yet of how often we will be required to be in the office.

I'd happily never go bk 😂 although I wouldn't mind so much if I just had a wee drive to work. I have to get public transport as it's in a city centre it costs a lot to go by train and my commute door to door is usually around an hour each way 😫I do miss the company and lunches out etc. Although with 2 little ones in nursery it's just so much better to wfh.

A lot of interesting points made. I do think forward thinking employers who want to attract the best talent will offer a flexible option.

However some PPs mentioned companies going WFH to save money and I'm sure there will be orgs who see an opportunity there that isn't necessarily best for staff.

That is why a hybrid of flexible model is best imo.it would be one thing if we were told office full time but the perks of the job otherwise balances it all out - they don't. There is no upward progression, holidays are the legal minimum and the office is small and out of the way.

I will look for a new job. But I won't just jump into something for flexibility alone. It will need to be right for me.

I am always amazed how the government in pushing people to go back to the office kept talking about people missing out on after-work drinks.
When I was young this happened, I started work at 16. But once I got older, most people are simply rushing to nursery, childcare, the gym or home to cook dinner. The after-work drinks are really for single childless people or maybe lazy men with a SAHW.

@Lizzie523

A lot of interesting points made. I do think forward thinking employers who want to attract the best talent will offer a flexible option.

However some PPs mentioned companies going WFH to save money and I'm sure there will be orgs who see an opportunity there that isn't necessarily best for staff.

That is why a hybrid of flexible model is best imo.it would be one thing if we were told office full time but the perks of the job otherwise balances it all out - they don't. There is no upward progression, holidays are the legal minimum and the office is small and out of the way.

I will look for a new job. But I won't just jump into something for flexibility alone. It will need to be right for me.

Hope you find something else soon. There are better employers out there.

@castemary

I am always amazed how the government in pushing people to go back to the office kept talking about people missing out on after-work drinks. When I was young this happened, I started work at 16. But once I got older, most people are simply rushing to nursery, childcare, the gym or home to cook dinner. The after-work drinks are really for single childless people or maybe lazy men with a SAHW.

Most of cabinet then.

It’s the corporate landlords whispering in their ears.

Also parliament is mainly suited to make drinking culture.

@Iggly true, maybe they are just thinking of their working days then?

@LemonTT At the end of the day there is no blueprint for what makes a business or organisation successful.

I fully agree. There is no "one size fits all" approach to any of this. Different organisations have different premises, different staffing structures, different customers, different products/services, different logistics channels, etc.

You can have two firms doing the same thing but which will be set up completely differently, so the "optimum" will be different ways of WFH. I've worked in 4 different accountancy practices - in theory, they should have been the same as they were comparable sizes, comparable type of client, comparable staff skills base - if you'd been an outsider comparing them you'd have struggled to see any fundamental differences. In reality, they were all very different in terms of how they attracted clients, the services they provided, how they provided those services etc. One was very "top heavy" with lots of qualified/experienced accountants and few trainees/juniors - another was the exact opposite with just one qualified/experienced guy running it with a small army of trainees/juniors. The dynamics between those two extremes was very different indeed and that would feed through to how each would manage WFH.

We're accelerating a return to full time office working this month with a view to all staff being back full time by June. There has been some push back and some colleagues have argued that they have been productive home working. And yes, we were sent home and remained at home from the beginning. And the business has survived and even made a reasonable profit

But during lock down, the daily activities of our sector, Face to face interviews, training, supervisions, provider forums, marketing and recruitment events have all been suspended. To get back on a growth trajectory- and to exceed our competitors and therefore protect jobs, we need to start these engagement processes again.

Outside of public sector I don't know anyone who isn't in discussion about a return to some office work.

Personally I'll miss home working. I dislike the commute and my day is deffo longer. My work clothes felt strange after a year of lounge wear. I am spending cash on lunches again rather than grazing from the fridge. But I know I need to be back to perform my role properly as we move away from restrictions

@Hobbesmanc I work for two private firms, neither are talking about returning to the office, But both are pretty innovative in their field.

Employers need to adapt to attract the best talent and incorporating wfh is something which is now highly repairable and so the best employers will listen to this, unless it does not make business sense. Again, ‘employers of choice’ or top companies are more concerned with building a partnership with their employers and are more likely to listen to their reasons for wanting wfh and will need to show evidence as to why it is detrimental to the business if they don’t want to encourage this, otherwise the best talent will go elsewhere.

I think we will see a split between top companies being quite flexible and others pushing the 5 day working in the office hard. As someone who commutes on a packed train the latter approach being backed by government is madness. We need a balance.

[quote castemary]@Iggly true, maybe they are just thinking of their working days then?[/quote]
Yes absolutely. I mean it’s easily done - to talk about things from their own personal experiences. But it’s a failing for them to not listen to how it may or may not work for people who work and live in a very different way.

[quote castemary]@Hobbesmanc I work for two private firms, neither are talking about returning to the office, But both are pretty innovative in their field.[/quote]
I suppose we mainly see our own sectors and those of our friends and families. I work in a very people facing environment. I totally support home working btw. It just wont work for our business

In the end it will depend on how secure employers feel in their relationship with their employees - and that works in two ways.

One - we feel very secure and we know our employees are working well - whatever location they use to work.

Two - we feel very secure because the job market favours employers so we can say and do what we like, because our employees will have to lump it if they don't like the working patterns we choose for them,

Two forms of feeling secure.

It’s so short sighted to demand workers are in 5 days a week. I think having worked from home all of this time, got your job done, and set up systems to make your work from home gives you a very good case.

If I were you I’d keep taking it higher in your appeals, and go outside the company to put pressure on and see if you can team up with others who feel the same.

Often companies will throw out silly demands like this, but with enough sustained pressure and a good argument they really do have to justify their position. Your contract may mean you have to go in eventually but get that checked too, possibly there are holes in that.

Also, the pandemic is not over and won’t be for a fair while, so they can’t insist at the moment without you being able to argue successfully I would have thought that you are not putting your health at risk with a commute.

Also ask them what system they have to keep air ventilation in the offices? There will be new variants for a while to come. They have a duty of care to you.

@looptheloopinahulahoop

In the end it will depend on how secure employers feel in their relationship with their employees - and that works in two ways.

One - we feel very secure and we know our employees are working well - whatever location they use to work.

Two - we feel very secure because the job market favours employers so we can say and do what we like, because our employees will have to lump it if they don't like the working patterns we choose for them,

Two forms of feeling secure.

Agreed that really it’s how competent they are.

Any competent managers will have good systems for ensuring work is done to a good standard and discipline/firing if not.

It shouldn’t matter whether someone works at home or not - people either do the job to an acceptable standard or they don’t.

I work in a very people facing environment. I totally support home working btw. It just wont work for our business

It can't work for everyone - for example if you work for a marketing agency, you really need the face to face interactions to get the creative juices flowing.

If you work in a library, you kind of have to be in the library, although there might be some work you can do remotely. Ditto with teaching, despite the successes of online teaching during lockdown I think most people would say you need face to face teaching. But that doesn't mean teachers can't do their lesson planning and marking at home. Or record the odd video lesson if they are going to be away on a particular day.

It's all about flexibility and finding new ways of doing things rather than same old male-dominated patterns.

You have a legal right to make a flexible working request every 12 months - and this DOES include working from home. they will need to evaluate the request on an individual basis - how other people did or did not perform at home shouldn't be taken into account. the only reasons they can refuse your request are the following grounds:
1 - Burden of additional costs
2 - Inability to reorganise work among existing staff (normally applies when someone wants to reduce their hours)
3 - a detrimental impact on quality (this is where you could agree to attend the office for meetings/team work etc)
4 - a detrimental impact on performance (you have evidence that this isn't the case for you)
5 - an inability to recruit additional staff (again, if you were reducing your hours)
6 - Detrimental effect on ability to meet customer demand (you need to address this, and 'customer' should also be taken to mean other internal departments and teams.
7 - Insufficient work when you intend to work (change to hours)
8 - planned structural changes to the organisation (eg if you are in a redundancy process)

The reasons for wanting flexible working aren't relevant to their fair consideration of your request. Address all the points above with evidence or show how they are not relevant, and they shouldn't be saying no as it would be unlawful. If they do, you can appeal.

‘Go outside the Company to put pressure on ‘
Not quite sure what this means

Well, if ’5 days a week in the office is going to be a hassle’ you need to quit. I’m sure someone else will be happy to take your job.

Agree that it totally depends on the business.

A few years ago as a school governor we were presented with the issue of a teacher asking to wfh. Her proposal was that she would devise the lessons and a TA would deliver them in the classroom. She was completely serious and involved union. It was a no!

Interestingly at one point last year my niece in Italy was in the classroom with the teacher at the front on zoom wfh, and the kids kept in order by a dinner-lady type person.

@Hobbesmanc one of the businesses I work for is not at all people facing but does require some people to work outside the office doing practical work. That will continue. The other business is very people facing but has moved from expensive face-to-face contact to call centres. As a result the business has expanded. I appreciate not everyone likes call centres rather than face-to-face, but it has helped the business grow. Again in this business some people have always worked outside the office and will continue to do so.

@IrmaFayLear there is a big difference between office jobs and practical jobs like teaching. Many jobs can not be done at home, or only the paperwork side.

We are in the Big Reshuffle
You need to move to a company that gives you what you want.

@user1487194234

‘Go outside the Company to put pressure on ‘ Not quite sure what this means

I’d use anything. Legal rights, health and safety at work directives, environmental impact, use any tool or resource out there! Many companies are affiliated with or have standards outside of their company even if they are private.