Manners - are there any you didn't know about until you were older?

[CheeseToastieLove]

Is there anything you didn't realise was bad manners until you were an adult. Things you weren't told when you were young? I didn't realise it was good manners to leave your alcohol at a party when you were leaving until I was in my late 20s. Always took my half full bottle home with me! Cringe. My friend was never taught it was bad manners to start eating before everyone's meals had arrived until she was in her 30s. She was always half finished before everyone had been served.

@IHaveBrilloHair @coffeerose I would expect my friends to take any spirits home with them! We all do it in my circle. But we do take other things to show our appreciation! We'd never take a half open bottle of wine though. I don't want to be left with a spirit I never drink!!

Correcting someone at the table is far worse manners than putting your cutlery down in the ‘wrong’ position.

Isn’t the done thing to join in with the mistake so as not to make the transgressor feel uncomfortable?

That person was showing their lack of breeding, I fear.

It's rude to expect people to join in rounds or split the bill evenly when they might have valid reasons to just buy their own, such as being on a small budget so can afford to go out if they limit what they have but not a share of someone else having three courses and lots of wine or loads of cocktails when you've just had a couple of halfs of lager.

If that's the case though, it is best to say something in advance "I'll be buying my own drinks tonight" or similar.

I had the 6.30 cutlery thing drilled into me too. DH does this odd thing where he puts the fork the right way up then places the knife with blade between the tines of the fork so it is on its edge, it drives me mad and really it doesn't matter a jot.

I had a book of etiquette as a teenager and it stood me in good stead for things like buttering a roll and using a side plate. My teen DCs have rarely been to a formal meal so probably haven't picked up a lot of it.

Like a pp I also have a fairly posh set of NCT friends but no one ever takes biscuits or cakes to each others houses, the host provides them.

I'd never take drinks I'd brought home from a party though unless pressed to do so by the host.

We also had to say, "thank you for the lovely meal, may we please leave the table", which was utter a nonsense and just a phrase we parroted.

I was taught to say this too and I taught my DC to say it.

I know what you mean about parroting but it does get them to think about who bought and prepared their food and being thankful for things. And it does rub off later on at the point when they say it and start to actually mean it (hopefully).

Similarly , I never understand this modern trend of saying that DC shouldn't be taught to write thank you letters when they may not like or be actually grateful for the present. To me that's missing the point because bluntly the letter isn't about them, or what they feel, it's about acknowledging the other person who has thought of them and taken the time and trouble to choose, buy, and wrap a present for them, and maybe put it in the post, which requires quite a lot of effort. But maybe that's an old-fashioned view?

Some of the gems I learned at my Granny's knee:

• NEVER say "nice to meet you".

-"How do you do?" is the correct response to the same question

• ALWAYS use the person's name when addressing him/her
• A younger person always uses the formal "Mr/Mrs Smith", not using

first names until invited.

• Introduce the social superior to the inferior, or the lady to the man.
• A seated man rises to shake hands on introduction, whereas a lady

remains seated

• A lady always offers her hand first
• A linen napkin is never folded after use - the assumption is that the

maids will launder it immediately after the meal. For the same reason, napkin rings are ((shudder)).

• Beds should never be made immediately after being vacated.

Bedding should be folded back to the chair at the foot of the bed, to allow for airing.

• NEVER do anything to embarrass anyone with whom one is

engaging

• A lady is recognised by her shoes and her handbag. Always

immaculate and of the best quality the wearer can afford.

• Diamonds are never worn before dark
• Peas are never piled on the fork, using it like a spoon
• The soup thing
• The HKLP thing
• Never cut bread, or butter the whole slice. Butter should be cut and

placed on the side plate, the bread torn, and butter applied piece by piece. Same with jam etc.

• Never ask anyone to pass the salt - instead, ask the person next to

you if he/she would like the salt. Code understood.

• Never apply salt to your meal before tasting it. Putting salt on

untested food insults the cook.

• Never arrived empty-handed when invited. Always write a thank-you

note.

• Visiting cards should never say "Mr John Smith" The "Mr" is seen as

an affectation.

Granny was born in 1889. Her etiquette and manners reflected the era, but then, good manners are timeless.

I love How Do you do. But I hate when it's answered with 'I'm good thanks'. Good as in well behaved??

So many things. I grew up in a dry poor household and we had very different ways of being to those I have adopted as I have changed throughout my life. I think most people learn and adapt to new settings, new groups new rules.

My journey started at school when I moved into private education on a full scholarship and was taken under the wing if the headteacher. She taught me less colloquial speech and gave me aspirations that my own family didn’t understand. I learned to say How do you do and to not say Pardon or Toilet. I learned to shake hands, to stand correctly, to eat correctly using a range of cutlery and to change my hairstyle and choice of clothes/makeup. She was unfailingly kind and understanding of my own family but also clear my life chances were better with a few changes.

Then I entered a peer group at university who were without exception from much more affluent backgrounds and who set different, unspoken, rules for belonging. I quickly learned to host suppers, to drink things other than lager and black and to avoid high fashion.

Manners are about making others feel comfortable. They are about ensuring people know the rules to allow them to fit in, if they want. They vary enormously from setting to setting. The use of the word ‘Pardon’ being a prime example. We had to repeatedly drum it out of our children whilst TAs at their primary were insistent upon its use.

The correct use of cutlery comes naturally to children who are raised in households who entertain regularly, but many children who’s social experiences are play dates and Granny’s for Sunday tea wouldn’t have a clue about breaking not cutting bread rolls, about fish forks, about eating fruit with a knife and fork or what to do with their napkins after the meal. Many of them will never feel the need to learn and that doesn’t make them ill-mannered, it means they live different lives.

Ill manners is making others uncomfortable. Smoking near others, blasting loud music in public, eating smelly food on crowded trains, barging through doors without holding it for the next person, leaving someone less able to stand without a seat, coughing and sneezing without covering your nose and mouth or shouting and swearing outside your own house. It’s not about pushing a soup spoon away from you.

@HeddaGarbled

Don’t take all of the lovely runny end of the Brie/Camembert/other lovely runny cheese. Take a slice along the length so that other people can have a share of the best bit. I learned this after getting told off at a slightly posher than I was used to dinner party.

My DM does this, drives me mad. I'm always telling her not to, but she claims she not to remember.

I didn't learn till my 20s that putting your knife and fork down together on your plate is the signal for "I'm finished" to the waiter. Found out when I met DH and he started taking me to naice restaurants. I'd put my cutlery down to chat or just for a pause and then have to defend it against waiters trying to clear it away.

I come from a "clear your plate" family, so to me it was obvious - if there's still food on my plate, I haven't finished, no cutlery signals needed!

Some of these have stood the test of time better than others. I'd be astonished if my DCs friends called me Mrs Surname, it's always been first names and it would be a total cringe otherwise.

I’m with LunaNorth, the worst transgression of manners or etiquette is to use these rules to embarrass or belittle others. My MIL is the absolute boss of this particular tactic and every meal eaten at their house leaves everyone’s nerves on edge.
I am working class but went to a public school on scholarship. It was awful. Some of the most heinous people, obsessed with dress or phrases, but rude, obnoxious and mean people. Not everyone, by any means, but was the dominant culture.

I don’t think it’s a nonsense to teach children to ask if they may (not can!) leave the table.

Does anyone know why it is rude to wear hats indoors? This was drummed into me as a child and now I am a teacher, I always make the children take their hats off indoors. But when they ask why, I can't really tell them... Hats in Church were especially bad apart from weddings.... And whistling indoors? My grandma would go mad if she heard that...

Ill manners is making others uncomfortable. Smoking near others, blasting loud music in public, eating smelly food on crowded trains, barging through doors without holding it for the next person, leaving someone less able to stand without a seat, coughing and sneezing without covering your nose and mouth or shouting and swearing outside your own house. It’s not about pushing a soup spoon away from you

This

@Seainasive oh no! A white dress! Did anyone say anything?

I love saying how do you do to people! So quaint.

Plump, I do if its just a parroted phrase that you'll say yes to anyway.
What's the point?

Why not, "I'm finished now Dad, may I please leave", the following evening might be, "I loved dinner tonight, spaghetti bolognaise is my favourite, could I please get down now", the third night, "Mum, I really didn't like the broccoli much, but could I please leave the table" etc etc.
Basically not a silly phrase that is meaningless.

Some of the most heinous people, obsessed with dress or phrases, but rude, obnoxious and mean people. Not everyone, by any means, but was the dominant culture.

Yes I've come across this too. All "good form" and no content.

Ah OK - we are much closer to your latter examples than anything parroted.

A number of times we have been at a table with other families and the other children have looked at DD with sheer gratitude that she has secured permission for them all to go and play!

I'm in the double "how do you do" camp. My French father was a fan of "Noblesse Oblige" and Nancy Mitford's description of U and non-U behaviour and was forever telling us not to say "pardon?", but "what?".

Does anyone know why it is rude to wear hats indoors? This was drummed into me as a child and now I am a teacher, I always make the children take their hats off indoors. But when they ask why, I can't really tell them

I was taught that it was a sign of respect to the host. Am extension of doffing your hat when meeting someone.

@LemonRoses so what do you say instead of pardon? I'm trying to think of more polite alternatives- I was taught don't say what say pardon!

The upper class barking "What" at me, sounds very rude. Not that I have many dealings with Upper class people!

[quote hollygoflightly]@LemonRoses so what do you say instead of pardon? I'm trying to think of more polite alternatives- I was taught don't say what say pardon![/quote]
Yes, my granny used to say that too! Mind you, she was called nanny, like a goat, too.

I definitely wouldn't make anyone feel uncomfortable, but I may point it out kindly afterwards not silly soup rules, but eating before everyone is served for example, because that really is just plain rude, but if you don't know you don't know.
also HKLP, I can't cope with it!