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Idiot’s guide to the Palestine/Israel conflict anyone?

110 replies

4PawsGood · 14/05/2021 13:12

I have googled, and in the past too, but everything is so long winded.

Anyone able to put together a three sentence summary? I really would like to understand what the background is.

OP posts:
Cherrysoup · 19/05/2021 06:55

@AndWhatNext

Biden said recently he will continue to support Israel and did you miss the bit about billions being given in aid?

The British (BBC) news focussed on one Israeli child being killed, with literally a ‘Oh and 50 odd Palestinian women and children.’ It’s very puzzling that we don’t hear about the Palestinian losses hardly at all. The reason Israel is included in Eurovision is because they are ‘close’ to Britain.

thinkfast · 19/05/2021 07:53

Deardia why do you say they land in Sheikh Jarrah was illegally taken by Israeli Jews? That gives a very misleading impression given the land was Jewish owned before it was taken by Jordan, Jordan allowed some Palestinian refugees to live there, and there's been a very long running court case to determine ownership.

If you think the court's decision in the case was wrong - you should say that. Don't give the impression that no process was followed at all.

AndWhatNext · 19/05/2021 08:07

@Cherrysoup I didn't word my question well, last night. I get and see the American and British bias. What I want to unpick and understand the underlying reasons for this support.

@JustFedUpOfThis thank you for the book recommendation.

JustFedUpOfThis · 19/05/2021 09:22

@thinkfast

Yes I agree the land in Sheikh Jarrah belonged to Jews before the 1948 Jordanian occupation of East Jerusalem. And Israeli Law permits the original owners of property in East Jerusalem to reclaim them.

However, Israeli law does not allow Palestinians to reclaim their properties in West Jerusalem (or any other part of Israel) from which they were evicted from 1948 onwards.

So there is a real discriminatory asymmetry in the rights afforded to Israeli Jews when compared with Palestinians. And I can really understand why the Palestinians are upset.

The current violence was triggered when at the start of Ramadan, the Israelis decided to seal off the area surrounding the al-Aqsa mosque - the third most important site is Islam behind Mecca and Medina. It did this “for security reasons” and fired stun-grenades and rubber bullets at the Palestinians who protested - injuring hundreds.

There is continual provocation of the Palestinians by the Israeli government and unfortunately Hamas always retaliates, which then leads to Israel attacking Gaza as we see today.

It is a very complicated situation (stating the obvious) but it is only through extensive reading over the past three years that I have realised the extent of the injustice against the Palestinians. I wish more people understood the background to today’s situation. No progress will be made until the wrongs on both sides are acknowledged.

thinkfast · 19/05/2021 09:47

I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned the various attempts at negotiations yet, including in particular Camp David. If negotiations then had been successful, the Middle East would be quite different today.

castemary · 19/05/2021 11:06

Just to add, countries like Britain did not help to create Israel as a homeland for persecuted Jewish people out of the goodness of their heart.
After the Nazis were defeated there were millions of Jewish people in concentration camps. Countries who had won the war did not want to take these people into their country and people in the camps were told to return back to the countries they came from. Small numbers did and some were attacked or murdered. Most refused unsurprisingly. As one woman I saw interviewed said, why would she return to Germany where her neighbours agreed with her being taken to the camps and many Jewish people being murdered?

So Israel was the solution. The elite in governments including Britain looked at the maps and decided Israel had no one living there except some nomadic desert people. So people could be encouraged to go there instead. There were some Jewish people campaigning for a homeland or Zion in this land. But most just wanted to live somewhere safe.

Once Israel was created, Middle Eastern countries started to expel Jewish citizens and some left because of violence to Israel. A little-noted fact is that about half the Jewish citizens of Israel are middle eastern in origin and their ancestors were expelled from or fled surrounding countries.

Of course there were Palestinian people living in some of the land. And there were people who wanted that land to continue being ruled by Palestinians. So conflict was inevitable.

The only solution is a two state peace. And there have been attempts at this before. But both Palestine and Israel, like Britain, now have more right-wing and nationalist governments/leaders where a negotiated two state solution is unlikely to happen.

It is a very complex situation. And it is important to note that the governments change and there have been different views and approaches over the years. People for example talk about Israel as if the government had been the same for decades.

Most people just want to live in peace and safely bring up their families.

RubyFakeLips · 19/05/2021 11:18

To just help provide some background, many people don’t understand that Jews do no consider themselves a religion as such but an ethnicity.

It is believed they are the descendants of the tribes of the Kingdom of Judah aka Judea, an area of land which is effectively modern day Israel and the West Bank making Jews the indigenous people of that area.

This kingdom was then invaded and colonised by the Roman Empire leading to a diaspora of Jews spreading around the world. Next came the Byzantines, the Ottomans and the British. Islam didn't even exist during the early invasions and didn't come into play until much more recent times.

Similarly, there never was an independent country of Palestine. Some Jews see Palestinians as descendants of colonisers or invaders, stopping them, the indigenous people from returning home. The religious element is far more recent as Jews, Christians and Muslims lived on this land together fo centuries. Not all Palestinians are Muslim either.

RubyFakeLips · 19/05/2021 11:24

As MadameMinimes has said this wasn't a religious conflict until more recently. People of all groups were displaced in 48 and Palestinians lived under rule of various Arabs countries between 48 and 67, which is what happened in Sheikh Jarrah. Jews owned SOME homes there, they were displaced and other refugees moved in. After 67 this land was under Israeli control and it was taken to court. Israeli courts did not say the new Palestinian residents needed to be evicted but that they must stay, but pay rent to the Jewish Israeli owners not the Jordanian owners they had previously been paying. This has rumbled on at court as rent wasn’t paid and eventually the decision to evict has been made. This has taken about 35 years and covers maybe 10 homes.

But it isn't really about those homes, the problem is, as some posters have said, the fact that there are strong factions on both sides of are completely polarized.

Many, many Palestinians suffer horrendously under Hamas, which has an ideaology driven by Iran and does not provide proper elected representatives to its people. Israel has been politically in disarray having repeated elections, it is a country which is mostly secular but has a powerful orthodox community which are effectively the right wing.

There is wrong and right on both sides but the main issue is both sides are being used as pawns by external players to push their own ideologies and moderate voices (which are actually the majority in both camps) don't have platforms.

becarefultheyarelistening · 19/05/2021 11:30

*@i**dontlikealdi "Not the same but comparative - NI and England. Yet another bloody religious war."
*
Northern Ireland was the last part of Ireland still standing against the English colonisers. When the native Irish were defeated Ulster ( Northern Ireland ) was "settled". The land was taken and people from England and many from Scotland were settled on this land to the dismay of those who had owned and lived on it previously.
These settlers were a different religion. Protestants. The native Irish were mainly Catholic.
The settlers ruled ( often unjustly). Tensions were always there since the First Plantation of Ulster.

BuggerBognor · 19/05/2021 11:49

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

BiscuitLover09876 · 19/05/2021 11:51

The issue is it's very difficult to hear a summary from someone who isn't biasd either way.

Coronawireless · 19/05/2021 12:04

@Bells3032

Basically Jews started arriving in what was once Palestine in the late 19th century due to rising antisemitism in Europe (there were already Jews living there before that but a small number). Following the Holocaust there was a huge displacement of Jews many of whom sought to go to the Holy Land. In 1948 the UN partioned Palestine with 80% going to the Arabs (which is now Jordan) and including Jerusalem and 20% to the Jews in what is now named Israel. Obviously some people living there were displaced and a lot of the surrounding Arab nations joined forces to eliminate Israel altogether in what became known as the War of Independence.

During this time there were a group of people who Israel's creation displaced but were never really accepted by Jordan either. They became known as Palestinians. At the time numbering around 600k(but now well over a million)

Over the next few years there were a number of wars and skirmishes culminating in the 1967 war where once again all the Arab nations including Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt went to war with Israel (who knows who really started?). Over the years and particularly in this war Israel (despite being massively outnumbered) captured the Golan heights, Sinai and Jerusalem. Some of which has since been handed back as peace treaties. However, as the holy city Jerusalem was never up for debate. during this time many of the Arab nations expelled 850k Jewish residents many of whom moved to Israel.

Over the next 60 years there have been continuing wars. In the 90s with Rabin as PM they very nearly came to peace terms but Rabin was assassinated and the peace treaty never got signed. Israel offered many a peace treaty over the years including large swathes of land but they have never been accepted by the Pal governments who to be fair to them understandably wanted the land back of their displaced citizens and refused for anything less than all of Israel.

the last major peace treaty Israel offered was in the late 90s and kicked off what was called the 2nd intifada. This including Pal suicide bombings in Israel mainly aimed at civilian populations including school buses and pizza palours. The Israeli government came down hard and built walls and check points with the areas of large Pal communities (ie Gaza and the West Bank). However, following some negotiations they agreed to pull troops out Gaza in 2004. Hamas was duely as the government from then on (whether it was legally and fairly elected is a matter for debate) and they haven't had another election since. They were meant to have an election this month but its suddenly been cancelled (make of that what you will).

However, Israel has continued to build settlements in the West Bank to accommodate their ever growing population. This is illegal under UN law and has caused even more resentment as more and more Pals have been displaced.

Every few months there are skirmishes between the two areas usually with Hamas firing rockets (Israel says they hide rockets and weapons in civilians centres and during the last war there was international recognition that a hospital that was bombed was bombed from the inside by a faulty rocket so there is some truth to it). Israel invested heavily in a defensive capability called the iron dome which anilates the rockets in the air so they don't to too much damage though do occasionally get through and people are killed. Every so often Israel , fed up with all the rockets, then hits the nuclear option and goes on an offensive into Gaza/west bank and bomb the crap out of them.

Eventually Hamas surrenders because they run out of rockets, Israel starts building again and a few months/years later the whole thing starts again.

Amazing! Thank you.
HeartBrake · 19/05/2021 12:14

Heartbreaking situation.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57154557

t0ngster · 20/05/2021 08:52

This is a pretty good summary, even though it’s a bit old.

www.therevival.co.uk/article/idiots-guide-israeli-palestinian-conflict

MilduraS · 20/05/2021 09:07

I found this animation really helpful in understanding the conflict. m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y58njT2oXfE

MirandaMarple · 21/05/2021 10:17

Thanks for posting OP and for all the replies and informative links.

Bells3032 · 21/05/2021 10:33

@t0ngster hard to take that link seriously when the names of the countries aren't correct. The Arab country was Jordan not Palestine.

Bells3032 · 21/05/2021 11:11

@JustFedUpOfThis so the non-jewish population is about ten times the size it was pre-Israel. if they're carrying out ethnic cleansing they are doing a terrible job of it.

I wonder what would happen if you did the Jewish v non-jewish populations of Arab countries since 1948.....

Thymeout · 21/05/2021 13:01

@tOngster

There is no way that the link you posted should be described as an unbiased history.

As someone who is old enough to remember the 6 day and Yom Kippur wars, tuning in every night for the latest news, I'm shocked at the way these wars have been minimised or rewritten to support the Palestinian cause and portray the Israelis as land-grabbing colonialists.

As I remember, it was touch and go whether the Israelis would succeed in beating back the enemies invading from all sides and escape being driven into the sea. They'd be crazy to return to 1967 borders and return land of strategic value, such as the Golan Heights, so long as Hamas refuses to accept Israel's right to exist.

I also remember film of the training of child soldiers - 10 year olds, not youths - on Panorama and that the IRA sent would-be bombers to Palestine for training. Israel had to put up with suicide bombers for years, blowing up buses and pizza parlours. Of course, they built walls and introduced border controls. And yesterday, Hamas bombed one which had been opened to allow humanitarian relief....

JustFedUpOfThis · 21/05/2021 16:29

@Bells3032

Same data, same source*, but just showing non-Jewish population of Palestine.

Your denial of ethnic cleansing of Palestine is racism.

Idiot’s guide to the Palestine/Israel conflict anyone?
Bells3032 · 21/05/2021 16:43

As I said I wonder whether the same thing would happen if you looked at the Jewish populations of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq.

The population were displaced in 1948 they were not killed. And since then the population has grown not shrunk - if Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing they aren't doing a good job when their populations are growing not shrinking. It makes no sense

JustFedUpOfThis · 21/05/2021 19:29

Your persistent minimising of what happened to the Palestinians in 1948 as just “displacement” is worrying. This is racism.

You may not think you are being racist, but you are. Minimising the persecution of non-Jewish people in Palestine is not acceptable. It happened in 1948 and it is happening now.

pantherrose · 21/05/2021 19:59

For those that say Israel has the backing and money, the Palestinians have the backing of the entire Arab world. Think about it. The Palestinians have been used as political pawns and collateral damage by their own people throughout the conflict. Most Israelis and Palestinians want an end to this in order to live peacefully together, sadly that does not suit certain wider agendas.