Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Idiot’s guide to the Palestine/Israel conflict anyone?

110 replies

4PawsGood · 14/05/2021 13:12

I have googled, and in the past too, but everything is so long winded.

Anyone able to put together a three sentence summary? I really would like to understand what the background is.

OP posts:
Violetparis · 14/05/2021 13:50

Really useful thread, thank you all.

kikidee · 14/05/2021 13:55

Thank you @SlipperyDippery and @EssentialHummus for very helpful explanations. I watched the drama, The Promise, by Peter Kosminsky a few years ago and found that very helpful in understanding the roots of the conflict.

ShirleyPhallus · 14/05/2021 13:57

Really good summaries, thank you

As a basic question which I appreciate will have a lot of very complex answers, it seems clear that Israel have taken over Palestinian land, and Palestine wants it back. But I’ve seen a lot on social media people saying they stand with Israel. Why is that? Do they believe the land is rightfully theirs?

Or does this relate to a specific area - is that what the fighting for the Gaza Strip refers to?

NoMLMbots · 14/05/2021 14:03

@BellaTheDog

This might help.
Ah but that only starts in 1946 ---- it might have not been named Palestine previous to then but I'm sure the land didn't just fall from the skies and was occupied for many thousands of years previously Hmm

People seem to start where they want to start to suit their own agenda

MrsTerryPratchett · 14/05/2021 14:08

People seem to start where they want to start to suit their own agenda

And this (and Jerusalem) is the problem. Everyone has a claim and everyone feels like the victims and everyone feel their very existence is threatened.

Israel is surrounded by people that hate it and want it gone. So is Palestine as it exists today.

Ultimately I stand with the people of both places. Women and children dying because men can't budge up.

52andblue · 14/05/2021 14:10

@Ylvamoon

The current conflict started as the British dividend communities by religious beliefs and then stamped "Israel" onto a map.

(Very, very simplified... but as someone already pointed out it's on the same lines as Northern Ireland or India/ Pakistan...

Certainly. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 'established a homeland in Palestine for Jewish people' (Palestine then being largely an Ottoman region with a minority Jewish population. But it has been disputed for far longer). But the area was carved up by the British (for British interests) in 1917.
paralysedbyinertia · 14/05/2021 14:11

Fantastic summaries from @EssentialHummus and @SlipperyDippery, who both managed to give a fair overview despite their differing backgrounds.

I firmly believe that the majority of Jewish Israelis and Palestinians are reasonable people who want a solution that is fair to both sides. Sadly, it is the extremes on both sides that drive the conflict, to the detriment of ordinary people who just want to get on with their lives peacefully.

As in so many conflict regions around the world, Britain is partly culpable for this situation. The legacy of our colonial mismanagement lives on...

cheeseismydownfall · 14/05/2021 14:15

@EssentialHummus

You too slippery Flowers. I was reading your post and thought that if it was down to the two of us we’d sort it all in an afternoon and still have time for a nice lunch Grin.

This is the difficulty (OP) - there is the actual conflict, which is difficult but not impossible to solve imo, but then on top of it you have generations of violence and revenge and ideology on both sides, and that makes it hard to focus on pragmatic solutions.

I often wonder in these situations what would happen if you told all the men to stop be so silly and go and be be quiet at home, and then asked a representative group of women - especially mothers, who are watching their children on both sides of the conflict grow up amid this horror - to come and quietly sort out a compromise.
giletrouge · 14/05/2021 14:16

@EssentialHummus

Jew here with Israeli relatives, so bias alert upfront.

It’s a difficult / huge question. I’d say - Following WW2 the state of Israel was founded to give Jews a homeland. That land was Palestinian, and the decision was a “top down” one by countries including Britain. It displaced Palestinian people who were living there. The two sides have lived uneasily ever since - there have been several full-scale wars over territory, and the situation now, I’d say, is Israel as a wealthy state with US backing and a huge military presence a) surrounded by neighbours who have its obliteration as their aim b) with a government that ranges from nationalistic to very very nationalistic - so a conflict flares up starting from either side (Palestinian protest or Israeli “resettlement” of Jews into Arab neighbourhoods, for example), and then it flares up like a tinderbox.

That’s as neutral as I can manage it, but I’m sure others will be along shortly.

I think that's a very good summary of a hugely complex situation.
giletrouge · 14/05/2021 14:21

Honestly it makes me want to weep to see how reasonable and clear two people on here from the opposite sides can be - EssentialHummus and SlipperyDippery - when out there in the 'real world' it's so intractable.
I'm tempted to say the problem could be solved by women if all the men had all their power removed from them, but that's probably too simplistic.
I can't help thinking it though.

BellaTheDog · 14/05/2021 14:23

I worked with a girl in the UAE. We wore identity badges with our name and nationality. Hers had her name and then her nationality stated as:

Palestine - Occupied Territory

I asked her about Palestine and she told me she had never been there. Her parents were thrown out of Palestine by Israel, from a place they’d lived all their lives. They were basically made stateless. They then travelled the world as refugees, taken in by anyone who would have them.

So sad. Fuck Israel.

SimonJT · 14/05/2021 14:26

@ShirleyPhallus

Really good summaries, thank you

As a basic question which I appreciate will have a lot of very complex answers, it seems clear that Israel have taken over Palestinian land, and Palestine wants it back. But I’ve seen a lot on social media people saying they stand with Israel. Why is that? Do they believe the land is rightfully theirs?

Or does this relate to a specific area - is that what the fighting for the Gaza Strip refers to?

Essentially a combination of pro-Israel reporting in the press and islamophobia.
EssentialHummus · 14/05/2021 14:30

But I’ve seen a lot on social media people saying they stand with Israel. Why is that? Do they believe the land is rightfully theirs?

I'm not sure at all. At a guess, I suspect most Jews would say they stand with Israel at some level - I think the government there is awful, but I think of the persecution of Jews throughout history and still feel a certain reassurance at knowing I could turn up to Israel tomorrow and be ushered in, no questions asked, housed and educated. (That is a VERY different experience from the one Palestinians working in Israel have, where there are gov't checkpoints left right and centre, and plenty of casual racism and hostility.) So many Jews, even outside Israel, can get behind the idea of "defending their homeland". The current flare-up, imo, has to do with Israel seeking to oust Palestinians from a neighbourhood they have lived in for 70 years, so no, I wouldn't be going on social media to "stand with Israel". The Israeli PM is knee-deep in political turmoil and I'd argue that the timing isn't coincidental, but that's my own view.

What else? A lot of Jews and Israelis take pride in the Israeli military - national service is compulsory and barring religious reasons it's hugely frowned upon to duck it. For centuries this wasn't the image of Jews - we were (and I'm sadly still holding up the old ideal Grin) hook-nosed, money obsessed bookish cowards who existed on the margins of society. So this young, healthy, self-sufficient, strong culture appeals to some, I think.

Then there's media and global political representation. This is very difficult to discuss, because one of the oldest anti-semitic tropes is the idea that Jews quietly control the media/banking/whatever else world. But - their US allyship gives Israel an advantage. Israel goes out of its way to court young Jews from all over the world to visit Israel or "come home". Israelis can travel far more easily than Palestinians and are more likely to have the means to do so. I'd add post 9/11 attitudes to Islam too. Etc etc. All those things filter down to social media.

babbaloushka · 14/05/2021 14:31

It's very difficult and I am absolutely no expert, but reminds me of when my brother was moved into my room as a teenager. We divided it into two sides, but he kept putting his stuff on my side, and as my mum's favourite, he kept getting away with it, until it was basically his room with my bed. I was not completely innocent, and would shout at him and sometimes throw things.

In that sense, Israel has a lot of backing by powerful nations that fund arms, and are generally in a much better position. Over the years, this has played out to their advantage as the land has been increasingly taken from the PA. There is lots of cultural and national vitriol from both sides, and extremists on both sides who would like the other abolished.

It's bitterly sad and traumatic to see innocent civilians, especially kids, having their lives torn apart by the conflict, with no resolution in sight. My heart goes out to everyone with friends and family in either territory, I can't imagine how terrifying it must be.

SingingWaffleDoggy · 14/05/2021 14:38

Haven’t RTFT so sorry if mentioned but I find Hip Hughes on YouTube very good at explaining history/ politics etc. This one is several years old now but gives some background:

I watch his videos for anything from religion to politics so I don’t seem stupid in adult company Blush
Bells3032 · 14/05/2021 14:39

Basically Jews started arriving in what was once Palestine in the late 19th century due to rising antisemitism in Europe (there were already Jews living there before that but a small number). Following the Holocaust there was a huge displacement of Jews many of whom sought to go to the Holy Land. In 1948 the UN partioned Palestine with 80% going to the Arabs (which is now Jordan) and including Jerusalem and 20% to the Jews in what is now named Israel. Obviously some people living there were displaced and a lot of the surrounding Arab nations joined forces to eliminate Israel altogether in what became known as the War of Independence.

During this time there were a group of people who Israel's creation displaced but were never really accepted by Jordan either. They became known as Palestinians. At the time numbering around 600k(but now well over a million)

Over the next few years there were a number of wars and skirmishes culminating in the 1967 war where once again all the Arab nations including Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt went to war with Israel (who knows who really started?). Over the years and particularly in this war Israel (despite being massively outnumbered) captured the Golan heights, Sinai and Jerusalem. Some of which has since been handed back as peace treaties. However, as the holy city Jerusalem was never up for debate. during this time many of the Arab nations expelled 850k Jewish residents many of whom moved to Israel.

Over the next 60 years there have been continuing wars. In the 90s with Rabin as PM they very nearly came to peace terms but Rabin was assassinated and the peace treaty never got signed. Israel offered many a peace treaty over the years including large swathes of land but they have never been accepted by the Pal governments who to be fair to them understandably wanted the land back of their displaced citizens and refused for anything less than all of Israel.

the last major peace treaty Israel offered was in the late 90s and kicked off what was called the 2nd intifada. This including Pal suicide bombings in Israel mainly aimed at civilian populations including school buses and pizza palours. The Israeli government came down hard and built walls and check points with the areas of large Pal communities (ie Gaza and the West Bank). However, following some negotiations they agreed to pull troops out Gaza in 2004. Hamas was duely as the government from then on (whether it was legally and fairly elected is a matter for debate) and they haven't had another election since. They were meant to have an election this month but its suddenly been cancelled (make of that what you will).

However, Israel has continued to build settlements in the West Bank to accommodate their ever growing population. This is illegal under UN law and has caused even more resentment as more and more Pals have been displaced.

Every few months there are skirmishes between the two areas usually with Hamas firing rockets (Israel says they hide rockets and weapons in civilians centres and during the last war there was international recognition that a hospital that was bombed was bombed from the inside by a faulty rocket so there is some truth to it). Israel invested heavily in a defensive capability called the iron dome which anilates the rockets in the air so they don't to too much damage though do occasionally get through and people are killed. Every so often Israel , fed up with all the rockets, then hits the nuclear option and goes on an offensive into Gaza/west bank and bomb the crap out of them.

Eventually Hamas surrenders because they run out of rockets, Israel starts building again and a few months/years later the whole thing starts again.

ramamamadingdong · 14/05/2021 14:44

If only essentialhummous and slipperydippery could be in charge of peace negotiations.

paralysedbyinertia · 14/05/2021 14:46

@ramamamadingdong

If only essentialhummous and slipperydippery could be in charge of peace negotiations.
Yes, indeed!
5zeds · 14/05/2021 14:48

I don’t think I really can understand support for Israel when we have people throwing stones (often children) shot and people being forced out of their homes so “settlers” can have them with no warning or reason beyond “we want your land”. I find it sickening.

Wetellyourstory · 14/05/2021 14:50

Not specific to the question asked but I read a book recently which gives an overview of the history of various regions plus the problems they face. It simplifies most regional conflicts such as Middle East/Syria, border issues (USA/Mexico/North Korea), why they are happening, why the West support/intervene and who (financial benefit/oil) and why other times they don’t etc. The Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall.

Makes you realise just how much conflict goes on in the world every day that people have to live through.

betterwithage · 14/05/2021 14:55

This is a very simplistic answer. . Jews have been fighting for survival for 100's years. They were nearly wiped out. They were given Land to call their own, feel safe. This land was already settled. The Jewish way of thinking (as I see it) , which I totally understand "Fuck with us we will destroy you." They will defend their citizens till death.

Bells3032 · 14/05/2021 14:58

@SlipperyDippery what an eloquent summary.

MrsTerryPratchett · 14/05/2021 15:05

@betterwithage

This is a very simplistic answer. . Jews have been fighting for survival for 100's years. They were nearly wiped out. They were given Land to call their own, feel safe. This land was already settled. The Jewish way of thinking (as I see it) , which I totally understand "Fuck with us we will destroy you." They will defend their citizens till death.
The problem is everyone has a point. It's just that Israel has the money and backing to do more harm. That makes them look wrong. But I'm pretty sure if the Palestinians had the same, the same bloodshed would be on the other side.

And no one will share Jerusalem so how will there ever be a solution?

5zeds · 14/05/2021 15:13

I think it’s very important not to use “Jew” and “Israeli” as though they were synonymous, they are not the same thing.

betterwithage · 14/05/2021 15:15

I totally agree. No easy solution and each have a claimed to this area. I think we all just hope for peace as there is no easy solution. We can only pray and encourage peace.