Can someone explain how this is fair?

[Changednameforthispost11]

Nc for this as outing from previous posts.

I work for the nhs, in a clinical role which includes membership of a professional body.

Our profession is on the nhs pay-scale, which means that qualified staff at the same banding would all be paid the same rate of pay which increases with number of years qualified. There is no negotiation of salary.

We received a message this week from our professional body stating that they were trialling a scheme to ring-fence a pot of money to be made available to qualified staff who are bame, to allow them to access courses and other post degree training. (Most of the time we have to fund any external courses and further training outside of our job role ourselves).

Being totally honest, when I read this, my first reaction was that this feels unfair. I could understand if funds were made available for anyone who had a particular situation or hardship, but to ring fence them specifically based on race makes me feel uncomfortable. Especially due to the fact that all qualified staff are paid at the same rate.

Would anyone else feel the same? Or am I being unreasonable? If you disagree with me, could you explain why you think this is a positive thing?

Tia

It feels like they have just jumped on this particular bandwagon? Or is it just sour grapes on my part?

Yea it does seem like sour grapes only because there really isn't anything you're complaining about except that this scheme exists. It's not that you think people in your team will suddenly be promoted over you or make more money than you or they're taking an actual opportunity from you. You just don't like that there's a scheme for a group of people to do something for free that you paid to do. It just screams jealousy.

Though I see some of your points and I do wonder why this particular scheme if it's not going to help or add anything to them in your workplace.

I may have missed it, sorry, but is it a temp position and the course will equip them for further work elsewhere?

YABU. Representation of BAME people in the most senior positions is desperately needed. Anything that helps BAME people to progress is a great thing.

It's not just about who pays. Systemic racism means that often BAME professionals find it harder to get permission to do professional development courses, their managers may be less accomodating when they do, their tutors less favourable to them. Providing funding and proactively supporting BAME people like this breaks down some of those barriers.

These initiatives don't deny any individual's hardships, but they do acknowledge that for white people skin colour wasn't a factor in their individual hardships.

White privilege with just a touch of entitlement is alive and well and posting on MN. The NHS is finally trying to address the issue of institutional racism, yet your knee jerk reaction to one of their long overdue initiatives is to complain how it’s unfair to (white) people. Unbelievable.

Check your white privilege OP.

“Though I see some of your points and I do wonder why this particular scheme if it's not going to help or add anything to them in your workplace. “

“I may have missed it, sorry, but is it a temp position and the course will equip them for further work elsewhere?”

It’s a national scheme, not specific to our hospital.

I’ve no idea of the reason for it, it didn’t give any explanation, just that there was a ringfenced sum of money which could be applied for by bame staff.

@Eightiesfan

White privilege with just a touch of entitlement is alive and well and posting on MN. The NHS is finally trying to address the issue of institutional racism, yet your knee jerk reaction to one of their long overdue initiatives is to complain how it’s unfair to (white) people. Unbelievable.

And @MoesBar

I prefer discussion and understanding than throwing around stock phrases like checking white privilege which feels like it’s being used to stifle debate and as a conversation stopper.

Promoting understanding goes both ways.

We all have different life experiences and views and it’s important to try and understand where people are coming from rather than insulting anyone who may think differently to you.

White privilege, unconscious bias or whatever term is used it is a massive problem, particularly in the NHS. You may not understand the reason for this ring-fenced fund or training it because you have never been turned down for a job, or been overlooked for a promotion because of your skin colour. To you this training is pointless and unfair but to someone who has to work twice as hard as their white counterpart, it is an acceptance of disparity between black and white and is a small step in to try and redress the balance on a scale that is heavily biased in your favour simply because of your skin colour.

I am uneasy with the phrase white privilege being thrown around to shut down any questioning of what appears to be the aim that 50% of any opportunities are to be made available to only 13% of the population

If anything especially with the nhs I would have thought it would be the other way round.

I get where you're coming from OP but the NHS is failing many of its BAME staff and worse, losing them. Specifically black people. My black friend who was a doctor in a hospital constantly encountered racism. So she moved to Canada. It was an easy move for her and her family and now they're all better off.
If you actually realise what racism goes on it's easier to realise that the money ring fenced is just a small token to help retain staff from BAME backgrounds as well as give a very small step towards them getting their foot in the door for the next step in their career. Being white unfortunately is the equivalent to a great many qualifications and experience in the U.K..

I am mixed race and brown skinned. I know full well I won't get a job in many places due to 'being brown'. I have to contend with absolute anxiety everytime I attend an interview as I know the minute I walk through the door if I'm rejected on the colour of my skin, you see the same old facial expressions and sometimes people have even been rude enough to make me fully aware. This does make life much harder and more of a struggle in the U.K.. So although on the face of it this scheme appears to be 'unfair' so is being rejected on a promotion or job simply because you're the wrong colour

And as for getting a job to fill a quota, that's up to the person receiving the job to decide if it's ok for them. I always know if I'm the 'token brown person' it's blindingly obvious and sometimes you don't even know until you're in the job. I can't tell you how depressing and embarrassing it is being the one person who's shoved out for all the office posters and website designs to prove to anyone who's interested that they have one BAME member, I have worked very hard for my career and my qualifications the job market in the U.K. for BAME people is demoralising in the least.

@pinkbathtub

Sounds very upsetting, hard not to get both demoralised and angry.

This Is necessary.I hope those that need it will get access to the training and are able to use the training effectively,.

NHS has a large population of BAME employees but my gosh what goes on in that establishment,you’d be horrified.
Talking from experience.

@pinkbathtub

It is awful that you have to go through this, I’ve had to contend with male counterparts in my career always getting higher pay, promotions etc. and due to the work that’s been done to progress women in my field, I’m finally starting to see the recognition and promotions for women. I hope soon enough, that will be the case for BAME groups still struggling. These schemes are part of the conversation. They are important. Until we have equality for all, we should support any initiative that encourages progression and diversity.

OP - You’ve still not convinced me that this is unfair. Our whole system is built on discriminating factors that benefit one group over another. From our school system to recruitment, it’s biased throughout.

You talk about different experiences and understanding, well maybe think back to a time when you yourself were discriminated against based on age, gender, religion etc. Has there ever been a time in your life you felt this was unfair? For many BAME groups, this is daily life.

I hope this might help you see it from the different perspectives pp are trying to show you. Please don’t sweep ‘white privilege’ under the carpet for your own means. The point is that because you’re not seeing it that people are making this statement. That is the fundamental point of the phrase. It is not an insult, it’s a concept you’re simply not grasping. This is a national initiative, so even if you can’t see the benefit to your department, it doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile for others.

In the nicest way, the very fact that you question how fair this demonstrates how you have benefited from being white. There are avenues open to you that you won’t even be aware of purely because you were born one race as opposed to another.

This is a good thing, if anything question why this wasn’t thought of sooner.

I think it'll be even mor eimportant to try to retain and train NHS staff now, we know that NHS staff from BAME backgrounds were disproportionately affected by Covid ill health, there was so much talk about that in the early phase of the pandemic. So many people will be thinking of leaving after the dreadful time they have had, so I think anything which will improve retention will benefit us all. Investing in people is one way to show they are valued.

The problem is if you have general funds, but a higher number of people from one group put themselves forwards for the opportunity, then those funds just further entrench existing inequalities. The classic example is the male/female split in political parties. It was only once you got targeted training and recruitment that this negan to be addressed. I am therefore happy to see ring-fenced budgets for certain sub-groups of staff, even if I am not a member of those sub-groups, I think they are an important tool in improving the workforce as a whole.

I think it should be for anyone at a disadvantage-

It's incredibly unfair. Schemes like this only serve to increase the amount of racism in the world. It should be available to everyone who meets certain criteria but that should not include skin colour.

Don’t know where to start with this comment.....

The problem is if you have general funds, but a higher number of people from one group put themselves forwards for the opportunity, then those funds just further entrench existing inequalities

But there is inequality in the numbers of BAME versus white British. I think it becomes unfair if you are aiming for 50% of BAME employees when there are only 13% in the country.
That means 33% of white British have jobs that can’t be accessed because of the colour of their skin.

It's called positive action, it's perfectly legal and if you can't see why it's needed you should examine your own white privilege.

It's called positive action, it's perfectly legal and if you can't see why it's needed you should examine your own white privilege

So because someone is white they can’t ever say something is unfair because supposedly we have never suffered racism or discrimination and had the world handed to us on a plate..

Byrhemillpond - no one is aiming for 50% bame staff. The op made up that figure..

@captainjacksparrow

In the nicest way, the very fact that you question how fair this demonstrates how you have benefited from being white. There are avenues open to you that you won’t even be aware of purely because you were born one race as opposed to another.

This is a good thing, if anything question why this wasn’t thought of sooner.

This

The sad thing is that in 2021 we still need schemes like this, that shows how far we still have to go to begin to redress the balance.

Good on the Union for seeing where they can help and putting in schemes to do so.

Sadieeloise5687

Byrhemillpond - no one is aiming for 50% bame staff. The op made up that figure

From my experience a lot of companies when they go down the route of wanting equal opportunities for BAME staff it is to try to get 50% of BAME employees.

I would want to know if there are 2 people. One is a young black guy from a well off family and one is a white woman who has no money and 3 dc. Are we saying that the free courses are handed to the black guy just because of the colour of his skin?
What other checks are put in place to ensure that the help goes to those who need it and not just for those who want it.

I am also nhs.i would have no problem with this. Equality isn't about what you put in, it is about what you get out. Minority groups are under represented in specialist and leadership roles, therefore supporting them to achieve the same roles that white people get without additional funding supports equality.

@Bythemillpond

It's called positive action, it's perfectly legal and if you can't see why it's needed you should examine your own white privilege

So because someone is white they can’t ever say something is unfair because supposedly we have never suffered racism or discrimination and had the world handed to us on a plate..

I feel embarrassed when I read this sort of comment, it is the sort of thing a young teen might whinge. It just totally misses the point and shows such a lack of knowledge of what the issues are, what the scheme is trying to addres and more importantly - how something like this benefits everyone across the country by improving the NHS.

People are too short-sided at times.

Life is not a zero sum game.