Child born at cusp of school cut off

[spookybitches]

My DS was born at the very end of August and I'm currently having conversations with the school about which year he will be joining. The school is adamant that unless he has any learning difficulties, he will be going into the year where he will be the youngest. He's literally days off the cut off.

We are currently living in the Middle East and will be back in England at some point within the next 5 years. Can I ask how strict schools are in England about kids joining the correct school year when they're born this close to the cut off date? I'm really uncomfortable with him being the youngest child in his class and if I know that there would be some consideration to allow him join a year later when we move back, I'll know to keep pushing this with the school. Thank you for any insight you can give!

This comes up a lot on MN (understandably!) along with lots of inaccuracies about what will happen when they do start. It’s down to the individual family to assess the best route imo - I know summer born boys (esp with older, girl, siblings!) who are absolutely ready for school at 4. Others where you look at where they are socially and speech-wise and think, no, I’d be looking to defer if he was mine.

The two other things that always grind my gears on these threads - “Oh, but reception is just like nursery.” Lovely, it may be, but after reception comes the rest of of KS1 and in England it’s quite formal learning quite young. People sometimes seem to only look at reception.

The other thing is how clearly this becomes a source of further disadvantage for kids with less engaged / organised parents who can’t research/spend hours on FB/tap into existing networks of friends etc - so an August-born from a family with one or two literate adults familiar with the UK education system (ie already at some advantage despite birth month) may have their family understand the issue and advocate for deferment, whereas one without that good fortune finds themselves the youngest in the class by 16 (?) months. One of the issues with the system set up the way it is.

@Heathofhares Since 2014 it has been the legal right of parents to ask for their (summer born) child to be educated out of age group. Lots of loud opinions on this thread, but the support on facebook is great and will help you choose the right thing for your DC.

Shame about all of the other children going in the correct age group who will be disadvantaged.

There will be kids attending in their correct year who may be at school with children well over a year older than them. It's physically dangerous for them and socially/academically unjust.

It also has implications later on, when you have girls of just turned 11 or 12 in class with boys who are well over a year older than them. Grim.

Going back to @spookybitches original post, to an extent it will depend on the system dc enters in ME and for how long before a move. If you establish him "out of year" before you need to apply for a UK place it may add weight to the argument. However generally a English speaking, nt child, even summer born, transferring will be assumed to be accommodated with peer group. Even EAL pupils and children with additional needs are typically kept in year as ability range is wide, especially in early primary, and work differentiated accordingly. Your issue is that the conversation won't start until nearer the time you apply for the place and starting at a UK school could be delayed while you discuss it.

I have two summer born sons. They both started reception just after their fourth birthdays. I have a few questions about the consequences of large numbers of summer born children being kept back a year.

If large numbers of children born between April and August are kept back then it starts to remove choice from families. A bright, chatty and sociable little August born who would be totally fine at school just after their fourth birthday if they are surrounded by a fairly even spread of other children born between September and August may well not be at all fine if they are 16 months younger than the oldest child in their class and five months younger than the next youngest. Families may end up being forced to hold their summer born children back because everyone else is doing it.

If everyone who was eligible kept their child back, then surely we would just move to a situation where children born in March are the youngest in the year and their parents will start worrying about them.

Yes, those March born children would be the youngest, but they would also be 4.5 rather than just four. Six months is a long time in terms of development and maturity. Maybe it would be good if children started school a bit later (provided there was increased investment in excellent full-time nursery provision for all, which I guess is unlikely).

My child was born two weeks from the cut-off; his friend was born just before midnight on the 31st of August. They are among the 'more able' children in the class and I'm hoping the fact that mine is a 'summer born' will help when he comes to take the 11 plus.

I do think this whole question would be less of an issue if children started school a year or so later in England.

DC1 is a premature August born.
When he was just turned 4, usual age for starting Reception, he simply wasn’t developmentally ready to handle it. He had some areas of development he was behind normal on, and he wasn’t mature enough for sitting still and learning phonics, letter formation and so on.
He was so unready for Reception that his school moved him down into their nursery class for most of the year.

By the time he was 5, he was much more mature and much more capable of handling the academic stuff, the sitting still and listening to the teachers and so on.

I’m pretty sure DC1 isn’t the only child like that.
If the school starting age was a year later such that all children were 5 when they started Reception, then yes, there’d still be a gap between the oldest and the youngest, but it wouldn’t be as damaging for children who are in a position where they’re both the youngest and slower developing the level of maturity needed to cope with Reception.

"Somebody has to be the youngest."

🤦🤦🤦

Honestly, it has nothing to do with this!!! It should be child focused and based on their readiness - not birth date!

www.google.com/amp/s/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeenshire/3120364/aberdeenshire-mum-battling-council-over-p1-deferral-for-premature-son/amp/

The above article is about a woman battling with her local authority on her son's deferral. Absolutely appalling.

I have literally no idea how you can't understand the problem here, when you've correctly noticed that it's about the disparity between the ages.

I literally have no idea why it's so difficult for you to understand. Perhaps you could use more capital letters?

@mintymabel

That poster is absolutely right, though.

And the fact that you've chosen to mock her use of capital letters rather than address any of the content of her post is further confirmation of that.

Thank you everyone for your responses. I'll join that Facebook group suggested above. That's really helpful and just what I was looking for.

Thank you for all the anecdotal stories, really happy your children were fine. However, I've had experience and know of many more people where it has very negatively affected children and it's really damaging. Their self confidence is affected and that has followed through into their adult life. I can't be vilified for not wanting my child to go through this, surely?

Schools here start at FS1. So he will have just turned 3, going to a school of nearly 2000 students. There is no option to wait until he's older to join reception as schools are so oversubscribed here, he likely won't get a place at a later date.

So yes, I am concerned that my 3 year old will be starting school and will need to be 100% potty trained and know how to wipe his own arse. I'm concerned that he won't know how to make friends and hold conversations with a 4 year old class mate. And later on, I'm concerned that if he needs to repeat a year, it will isolate him and ruin his confidence. I'm sorry if that's really difficult for others to understand.

Exactly arethereanyleftatall and Jacksonsmusic

@SixDegrees - but what you are discussing is a completely different scenario. A prem baby, with associated developmental needs. They are who the exceptions should be for, not parents who just want their child to be at a perceived advantage. The OP specifically stated no learning difficulties. So what she is proposing is putting some Summer borns into a class not only with children 11 months older than themselves, but those who are 13 or 14 months older than themselves.

Again, HarrisMcCoo - you are talking about a different scenario. The OP clearly stated no learning difficulties. You keep referring to a family where there is an actual case to defer.

Heathofhares - As you have quoted yourself - it is the legal right "to ask". It is not an automatic right for it to happen. Massive difference.

spookybitches The thing is, all that you've just put i your post - about a child of 3 starting at a 2000 place school - isn't what you asked in your opening post. You asked a question about a child possibly going into a school, in an unknown number of years time, at an unknown year group, being allowed to start in the year behind where they should be.
You'd have got very different answers if you'd asked about what is on your min now, for this Summer.

It is very unusual to repeat a year in UK system, although you can do an extra year post 16. There is no "pass" or "fail" each year unlike some other systems. Is there no alternative to such a large school, but presume it goes up to secondary. Is it over several sites?

I did not say he would be starting school in a number of years time. I said we would be moving back to the UK in around 5 years time, at which point it would be too late to move him from the year he goes into now.

My question, at the very beginning, was to ask how strict are schools in the UK about sticking to their year groups and if there is ever consideration for those born close to the cut off date. I gave more info on my concerns when pp started accusing me of expecting rules to be bent for me, which is not what I asked or implied.

@LIZS

It is very unusual to repeat a year in UK system, although you can do an extra year post 16. There is no "pass" or "fail" each year unlike some other systems. Is there no alternative to such a large school, but presume it goes up to secondary. Is it over several sites?

I repeated year 9 at a UK school, so it is possible.

I have a summer born. She's not, by any means, the most academic child but I really can't see it would have done any good keeping her back.
IMO, it would have done damage. No kid wants to be that kid. Reception and early infants age probably wouldn't even register the age difference but they would once they got into juniors and then into high school!! Potentially, they'd be ripped to shreds. Kids are shits sometimes.

Spooky, FS1 was VERY gentle at our school.
They started 30 mins later, and finished 30 mins earlier to avoid the mass exodus of bigger kids (similar school size).
It was very much play based, with high staff:student ratios.
They were helped with aprons, washing hands, opening packed lunches.
It was very much more like nursery than school.
That said, I totally understand the fraughtness of getting a place.
If he is very young, might the decision be made for you, and he wont pass the assessment as he is just too young?
Do you know where in England you ate likely to return to? Can you see if you can find info on how that LEA treats deferred summer borns?

That said, my two came back from the ME to England aged 8 and 10. Yes, they hadn't got a great grasp of English geography, but they aced the desert topic. There were holes in knowledge but in terms of maturity, they were pretty good because of the grounding the international school had given them. You may also find FS2 is slower than Reception due to the numbers if kids with English as a second language.

Good luck with your information search, and I hope you get the right school placement now and on your return to England.

If I was you I would not worry too much. My daughter was born on
28 th August she was normal height when starting school unless you knew you would not realise she was the youngest. It never held her back academically and she is now qualified as a GP x

....and will be back in England at some point within the next 5 years

..... so, starting in the English school in an, as yet, unknown school year, but you are already deciding you want him to go into the year below where he would be expected to be. Which is what I said.