Do you secretly judge people who announce their pronouns in their emails?

[Mewmin]

I was reading the thread on BBC pronouns earlier and it got me thinking about my own reaction when I come across people who I had previously respected and looked up to who have put their preferred pronouns in their email signature (all female with obviously female names like Annabelle and Rebecca).

Personally I believe it shows a lack of critical thinking and, working in the academic field, I am finding it very difficult not to alter my view of the (very) few colleagues and work contacts who have done this. In one case it has actually made me think twice about working more closely with someone.

Am I alone in this?

I should add that I am supportive of transpeople's rights but don't think that they should override women's rights and I cannot go along with the lack of logical thinking and tautological definitions used in gender ideology.

It seems a bit self-obsessed but I think the whole pronoun things is anyway. Why do people care what word other people use to describe them?!

I use to work with a man who was from a country where English wasn't really taught. He called everyone 'he' - it didn't offend me!

@Stompythedinosaur

But you are at work. You shouldn't be attaching your work identity to your political beliefs on a controversial issue.

I am happy that opposing discrimination isn't seen as a controversial issue within by workplace (the NHS).

Stating your pronouns is not opposing discrimination in any shape or form!

And I am very unhappy that public sector organisations are failing to take into account the rights and protections of women, girls, and a whole host of other protected groups under the equality act and other marginalised groups in the service of this demands of gender activists. If your NHS calls women 'cervix havers' then it is not opposing discrimination. It is supporting discrimination by using inaccessible language that creates a barrier to healthcare.

I am tired of the lie that all this is about opposing discrimination. Look more closely. Its really not.

What I wonder about as well is in a big organisation how are you even supposed to remember that someone you may have never met wants to be they/them for example? Tbh I struggle to remember most people’s names let alone specific pronouns! Then what, you get it wrong and you’re in trouble for “misgendering”.

I judge. They're either truly woke, cynically adopting it for career, or cowards. None are good.

It's utter nonsense. DD has received a request from her university asking which are her preferred pronouns and included a list yes a bloody long list and one of the many choices was: Zim, Zeem and Zimself, I shit you not.

It's become company policy for us, although not many people have added it to their email signature.

I was going to have some fun with it. I was going to be her/him one week, He/she the next They/it a week later

@peaceanddove

It's utter nonsense. DD has received a request from her university asking which are her preferred pronouns and included a list yes a bloody long list and one of the many choices was: Zim, Zeem and Zimself, I shit you not.

This made me - I knew of a Zimon once who would totally have picked these for Zimself (complete with rogue capital letter!)

Fortunately DD has been raised in a household that views all such self-important, navel gazing, self absorbed fuckwittery with a mixture of mirth and a very high level of skeptism.

@Livpool

It seems a bit self-obsessed but I think the whole pronoun things is anyway. Why do people care what word other people use to describe them?!

I use to work with a man who was from a country where English wasn't really taught. He called everyone 'he' - it didn't offend me!

I get called 'he' so often as Finns who don't speak English a lot aren't used to using he and she so use them interchangeably, whichever comes first to mind. Just makes me smile, I don't bother to correct it.

I have never come across this, what does it look like? Literally underneath their job title?

@TurquoiseLemur

I couldn’t agree more. I’m all for diversity. And by Christ it should be represented.

But it is all so disproportionate now.

For me if there is a white straight person on a programme, they are almost the ‘minority’.

And I would bet all applications for programmes now include pronouns and classifications from asexual to zim.

Boxes ticked. Pats on backs a-gogo.

Yes. Although my eye-rolling probably is obvious.

I don't get why people are so sensitive about this when I've been called 'SIr' countless times in letters throughout my life and no one corrected that.

[quote ChairmansReserve]@AChickenCalledDaal

It's a pretty massive and insulting assumption that someone like my non-binary adult child are narcissistic and lacks social skills, just because they have a different view on gender than you do

The horrible mess of grammar in this sentence (someone like my non-binary adult child are narcissistic) is a nice, neat demonstration of the kind of mangling of language and thought that results.[/quote]
Well ... I tend to agree. If there was a neutral noun that I could use to mean "adult son or daughter", it would be extremely useful to me right now. Because it would mean I could respect their wishes without mangling the english language.

And that is also precisely why they feel that pronouns are extremely important. That doesn't automatically make them narcissistic or lacking in social skills as implied above.

(I usually say child, but they aren't a child and from experience if I use that word on a discussion like this people will jump to the conclusion that they are too immature to make their own decisions about this.)

Havent rtft yet but I do judge. It feels like no critical thought has gone into it. It's completely unnecessary for the vast majority of people, and the idea of "normalising" something that isn't normal feels quite patronising. I mean, being trans isn't common - most people don't feel the need to try and ape the associated stereotypes and appearance of the opposite sex.

yes i judge!

I'm not going to judge. People can do what they want and they should do what feels right for them. I don't really care.

It's starting to creep in in my organisation, starting with the HR dept and fanning out from there. I noticed my 50 odd year old manager had added hers this week which really disappointed me somehow. I won't be doing it because I believe it is harmful to women and vulnerable people. There hasn't been any pressure to do it so far but I wonder if it will come. I like to think I'll be strong enough to push back coherently and firmly as I think most of my colleagues lack the critical thinking to question it.

I sort of wish I hadn't posted on this thread. I think there's a lot of reactionary nonsense on it which isn't exactly critical thinking either.

I get your argument if you're saying the 'she/her' pronoun makes women be taken less seriously at work even if I don't agree with it (and I don't know if I do or not). But I do think gender is a construct and gendered pronouns are part of that. I don't state my pronouns on emails and I'd prefer it if we had one gender neutral one (that was't 'they/them') so I think you have to ask yourself if an 'eye roll' response is a thoughtful one. It's a complex issue that really isn't about narcissism or me me me for the most part. It's about challenging the construct of gender, however imperfect it is as a method.

[quote SheldonesqueTheSecondComing]@TurquoiseLemur

I couldn’t agree more. I’m all for diversity. And by Christ it should be represented.

But it is all so disproportionate now.

For me if there is a white straight person on a programme, they are almost the ‘minority’.

And I would bet all applications for programmes now include pronouns and classifications from asexual to zim.

Boxes ticked. Pats on backs a-gogo.[/quote]
If anything, it seemed especially unnecessary on a programme which is all about make-up. It would be surprising in a group of 12 people all passionate about make-up and very skilled in its application if NO-ONE identified as gay or trans! Just as it would be in any other strand of the fashion industry, or in show business.

To me, "zim" still sounds basically male because it sounds so much like "him."

I don't understand your post Plantsitter. What do you mean by "it's about challenging the construct of gender*. How does specifying pronouns do that?

The only people I know who do it are parents of trans children, so no, I don't judge them.They have enough to deal with without my judgement.

AutumnBrooke maybe a better way of putting it would be, it's about people wanting to live in a way that isn't constrained by traditional gender (rather than sex, which to my mind is not yet negotiable). I don't actually know exactly what I think about all this except that my personal end point ideal would be that sex is immaterial in terms of how you behave/what you call yourself/ what people call you (so gender would cease to exist). I think the pronouns thing is the beginning of that change and to dismiss it with an eyeroll is really conservative. I know there's an argument for single sex spaces and so on. Unfortunately there seems to be no room for nuance in this debate and I'm going to leave it there though.

@ThePlantsitter
You're almost right but then you're 180 degrees wrong.

Putting your pronouns in every email you send does everything possible to entrench and centre the stupid, reactionary concepts of traditional gender.

I have spent a lifetime trying to be taken seriously and understood as a human being, not defined or limited by my sex. Why would I want to highlight and draw attention to my sex every time I write to anyone about anything? And why should I care if people call me 'he' or 'she'?

Well if I understand you correctly I think I agree with most of what you said PlantSitter. Where I don't agree is that announcing pronouns is moving towards a society where gender doesn't matter. I believe that the gender identity movement, which this is a part of, is all about enforcing gender stereotypes and putting labels on people. I wish everyone could just be themselves without having to conform to a certain role or label. That's why I refuse to specify my pronouns. It's regressive not progressive.

@AChickenCalledDaal
Well ... I tend to agree. If there was a neutral noun that I could use to mean "adult son or daughter", it would be extremely useful to me right now. Because it would mean I could respect their wishes without mangling the english language.

Presuming your adult child is not reading this, you could just be truthful. 'They' are not a 'son or daughter' , are they? They are your son, or your daughter. And you know exactly which one they are.

And that is also precisely why they feel that pronouns are extremely important. That doesn't automatically make them narcissistic or lacking in social skills as implied above.

It is, though. When I send someone a work email, I presume that what matters to them is the content of the email and what action they need to take as a result.

I don't for one moment think that what they are doing is pondering on my genitals and/or my much-reflected-upon sense of my own gender and what they should call me if they need to refer to me in the third person when speaking to someone else.

To imagine that they would be thinking about those things is kind of the definition of narcissistic.

It's also, for the same reasons, really unprofessional. I don't put my weight or my religion or my age in my emails, because those things are not materially relevant to my work. Neither is my sex, nor my gender, if I had one.