Moving to Holland

[Hamhockandmash]

Don’t really know where to put this!
Can anyone tell me about life in Holland? DH has been offered a job. We have a DS under 1 too.

Anyone here from Holland? Anyone lived there?

Thanks

Have lived in Holland before as well. I think it greatly depends on where you will go. People in west part (the two 'Hollands') are quite used to expats and you will get a long way with your English and some Dutch words. People in other parts of the NLs may not be so used to expats and you will be looked at as 'the foreigners' for a long time. On the surface Dutch people are very open. They may also ask a lot of questions which you would normally consider too direct. Please keep in mind that relatively few Dutch mums work full time. Most are still SAHMs or work 2-3 days a week. The rest of the time is spent with volunteer work (for the school or neighbourhood) and they always have plenty of time for coffees. I have to admit that our move (being white) was easier than that of my friend (who's Angolan). If you're white, you are more easily assumed to be an expat (or rather: people assume your husband is the expat). My friend suffered more as she often had the feeling that people assumed she was the nanny/mail order bride etc. On the surface, Dutch people are transparent and tolerant. Underneath however, they are still used to traditional families and role patterns. Accidentally we both moved to BE around the same time and my friend finds it much easier here: although Belgians are much less social, there are more Africans here and nobody dares to ask funny questions.
For kids: the Netherlands are great as school is not so intense and there are lots of activities. Kids are welcome everywhere. Compared to Belgium I can now see that Belgian society is much more used to working mums. Afterschool clubs here are normal, while in Holland it is rare to leave your child in school after it ends. In Holland it was also much harder to find holiday programmes for kids as people rely much more on grandparents and of course most mums were not working. On the other hand, the school in NL was far less competitive than the school we now have in BE.
I still have a lot of expat friends in Holland and they love it: there are plenty of part time jobs (that are rare in Belgium) and work can be combined easily with child care. Even for dads it is quite normal to have "papa days" where dads stay at home. Many dads work 36 hours in a four-day work week.
There are some regions in the Netherlands which are very traditional (the bible belt) and I would recommend avoiding these.

Social integration.
Everyone is lovely and welcoming.
But it was noticeable with dh friends, that once we switched to speaking Dutch not English, suddenly I discovered the other side of people, more humour, more relaxed etc. they were very polite when just speaking English (and they all spoke excellent university level English)

I live in the Netherlands. Started off in Gelderland and now I'm in Limburg.
I love it and have no desire to return to the UK. I've been here nearly 20 years now.
DH and I both speak Dutch and DS, who was born here, is fully bilingual.

The climate is fairly similar to southern England. Inland, where I am, the summers are hotter and the winters are colder.

The education system is pretty good and there's a lot for children to do. School times vary but are usually 8:30 - 14:00. Clubs and activities are very inclusive and easily affordable. Children's clothes and shoes are expensive though and not especially good quality. We buy DS shoes from Clark's, and have just done a big M&S shop for everything else.

Agree with the poster who said that it's superficially like the UK, but then isn't.
People are very blunt - especially in Holland and Rotterdam. They can shock even my Limburg work colleagues! You do get used to it though.

There isn't so much prepackaged food compared to the UK, and I find it more expensive. The Dutch eat lunch at 12:00 and the evening meal at 17:30, so sports clubs etc tend to meet in the early evening, at 19:00 or so.

The coffee is very, very good.
Liquorice with salmiak is an acquired taste.
And stroopwafels. Yes. Oh yes.

Oh, and you can absolutely go hill walking where I live!

ds is now 18.
When he was 5 we lived in Holland for a while, and he went to a lovely school, but it wasn't the closest (no space). I was expected to pick him up and bring him home for lunch and then take him back to school. That wasn't possible for lots of reasons, so there was a (very) small group of kids who stayed for lunch at school. He had to join those, it was frowned on that I didn't bring him home for lunch. He was 5 and had just done a full term in reception in UK doing full days.
Dutch school finished earlier than UK school, and had wed afternoons off.
I don't know if that has changed.

Yes, that changed about 3 years ago, thank goodness! Most schools have changed to the new 8:30 - 14:00 5 days a week.
I once got my days mixed up and didn't collect DS on a Wednesday. The school phoned me to come and get him. He still reminds me......
I live 200 metres away so it was hardly an issue!

It all sounds lovely...but I don’t think I want to go. What will I do with myself all day? No friends or family...just DS and I. I’m a bit scared.

re the post about lots of mums not working full time. This is true, but it is also true for a lot of dads. They have a culture where it is a LOT more accepted to work part time to fit around childcare and also a stronger culture of, once the office hours finish, people dash of home (often to pick up children from day care). I know some people find this infuriating, but actually I think it is good - it makes it easier to balance working and home life (obviously this varies company to company and the last year has completely turned everything on its head as always).

@Hamhockandmash

It all sounds lovely...but I don’t think I want to go. What will I do with myself all day? No friends or family...just DS and I. I’m a bit scared.

I can give you lots of tips on making friends/friendship groups as a mum to a young baby in the Netherlands if you want - I am sure lots of others can too. However... if you feel really really strongly that you don't want to uproot your life in the UK and leave behind friends and family then it is important to listen to that voice (and your DH needs to listen too). It could be a great adventure, but it is one you should only embark on if you both want too. And of course your DH will have a different experience to you as the "trailing spouse". (although that said, there are a lot of women in Amsterdam/the Hague etc who are in a similar position because of the international companies based there. So it should be easy to find people in a similar position to you.

This is a really interesting thread as I had a vague promise of being headhunted to the Netherlands a while back that I might be able to follow up on; I am pretty sure it isn't for us though for a variety of reasons. We have two DCs and the older one has SEN and the younger one is mixed ethnicity and I would worry about the older one's schooling (he actually loves learning languages but in at the deep end aged 9/10 with no knowledge of the system and the usual attitude being put them in with no support till they fail) and the younger one standing out (we live in a fairly mixed area though her ethnicity is unusual she does at least look like a lot of her school mates, and we have two families we are close to who are on paper the same ethnicity but don't look like her!)

And then I'd be the working parent and DH (who at least speaks some German) the SAHP which sounds like it's not the norm... it isn't "Holland" where the opportunity is located either so I imagine it's all or almost all White and as a PP said mainly SAHMs.

@drspouse

This is a really interesting thread as I had a vague promise of being headhunted to the Netherlands a while back that I might be able to follow up on; I am pretty sure it isn't for us though for a variety of reasons. We have two DCs and the older one has SEN and the younger one is mixed ethnicity and I would worry about the older one's schooling (he actually loves learning languages but in at the deep end aged 9/10 with no knowledge of the system and the usual attitude being put them in with no support till they fail) and the younger one standing out (we live in a fairly mixed area though her ethnicity is unusual she does at least look like a lot of her school mates, and we have two families we are close to who are on paper the same ethnicity but don't look like her!)

And then I'd be the working parent and DH (who at least speaks some German) the SAHP which sounds like it's not the norm... it isn't "Holland" where the opportunity is located either so I imagine it's all or almost all White and as a PP said mainly SAHMs.

I would say that the SEN system is pretty different to UK, much less inclusive, most children are not in mainstream. My impression is though that the special schools are good. But that is based on a couple of examples and may be wrong.

In term of working parent, you will find lots of dads doing childcare.
It is normal for parents to work 4 days and have 1 day childcare, so if you go to the park, there is a high % of dads there, as it is theri day with kids. Much more normal than here I think.

@drspouse

This is a really interesting thread as I had a vague promise of being headhunted to the Netherlands a while back that I might be able to follow up on; I am pretty sure it isn't for us though for a variety of reasons. We have two DCs and the older one has SEN and the younger one is mixed ethnicity and I would worry about the older one's schooling (he actually loves learning languages but in at the deep end aged 9/10 with no knowledge of the system and the usual attitude being put them in with no support till they fail) and the younger one standing out (we live in a fairly mixed area though her ethnicity is unusual she does at least look like a lot of her school mates, and we have two families we are close to who are on paper the same ethnicity but don't look like her!)

And then I'd be the working parent and DH (who at least speaks some German) the SAHP which sounds like it's not the norm... it isn't "Holland" where the opportunity is located either so I imagine it's all or almost all White and as a PP said mainly SAHMs.

Just a quick reaction to your fears re. your SEN child. What I've noticed in NL far more than in BE is that in NL you have much more attention for SEN and gifted children. My kids have never attended a UK school, so I don't know how that compares, but in our Dutch classes almost every kids had additional help, either because they had SEN or because they were gifted, highly sensitive etc. So I wouldn't worry so much about the support although that may depend on the school. Regarding mixed heritage kids: mine have a mixed European heritage so are definitely not whitewhite if you see what I mean. In our school in NL this made them somewhat exotic, but there were more mixed heritage kids and every body knew we were not Dutch anyway. I think this is far less an issue in the bigger cities in the west part. And yes to your comment re. being the working parent. We both work full time and I think I was the only full time working mum on the school. I don't care much about that however and at least I wasn't there at the school gates every day to get disapproving looks! With many dads working part time, it is quite normal that they are at the school gate...

Where in the Netherlands are you going?
Big difference between north and south, I found.

@drspouse

This is a really interesting thread as I had a vague promise of being headhunted to the Netherlands a while back that I might be able to follow up on; I am pretty sure it isn't for us though for a variety of reasons. We have two DCs and the older one has SEN and the younger one is mixed ethnicity and I would worry about the older one's schooling (he actually loves learning languages but in at the deep end aged 9/10 with no knowledge of the system and the usual attitude being put them in with no support till they fail) and the younger one standing out (we live in a fairly mixed area though her ethnicity is unusual she does at least look like a lot of her school mates, and we have two families we are close to who are on paper the same ethnicity but don't look like her!)

And then I'd be the working parent and DH (who at least speaks some German) the SAHP which sounds like it's not the norm... it isn't "Holland" where the opportunity is located either so I imagine it's all or almost all White and as a PP said mainly SAHMs.

My son is mixed ethnicity and we are happy living in the Netherlands (although it is in Holland and a more multicultural area than you might be moving to). I would not say that there is no racism - there is, probably at about the same level as the UK but expressed in different ways. I think Dutch directness makes it easier to spot though - which is either a good or a bad thing. I did factor this in when choosing where we lived - but would have done this in the UK too. One difference is that the Dutch are incredibly proud of their self image as tolerant and progressive. This can be annoying, as any discussion in public about racism is met with "not us, we are not like that, you must be mistaken" but on the other hand that self-image can be a positive thing. As far as SAHM's go. I think the Netherlands has one of the highest rates of part time working in Europe, particularly among women but it is also more common among men. e.g. the wife works 3 days a week, the husband works 4 so they only need to put the son in childcare 1 day a week etc. This can be awkward if you work full time, but overall I think it is positive that it is more accepted by companies. I have found (and I might be contradicted by others) that in some ways the Netherlands has a more low key feminist vibe than other places. I have received WAY less street harrasment than anywhere else I have lived, and a lot of (non Dutch) men say Dutch women are bossy, very forthright, the ones in control in relationships (TBH they seem slightly intimidated by them). I would not say they were "bossy" but overall women do seem much more confident, wear less makeup (itself an issue if you like wearing a lot makeup - it will be commented on!). The older women in my area seem to be the main source of authority rather than the police, gemeente etc. So it is quite matriarchal. It suites me anyway.

And all the women who are SAHM seem to be incredibly busy/involved in everything as well. It definately isnt some kind of 1950's cliche of waiting at the door with a fresh face of makeup for hubby to come home.

Oh, and as far as your partner being the SAHD. I dont think that would be an issue in itself - I know quite a few couples where the fathers stay home. However, as the non-working parent who is effectively "following" your job it is very important to make sure he is onboard and comfortable with the move as well as he will have a different, and possibly harder, experience to you. Same as if the non-working parent was the woman.

Which city? It’s a great place! We moved there from Australia for two years and stayed for nearly nine. I really miss it.

Our family are in Limburg (south) I’ve found people more commonly have German has their second language and less English is spoken. Certainly true of our family and myself and dc have to speak Dutch to relatives. Everywhere else in the Netherlands, you will struggle to find someone who doesn’t speak English well

I think the setup for kids is very good, lots of outdoor activities, the Efteling, cycling. I tend to shop at the Hema which I think is reasonable for kids stuff. I moved there with two toddlers and was a sahm, I made friends and enjoyed it - did have family there so felt a connection anyway, my Dutch was basic convos only back then.

We often think of moving there, especially after the UK left the EU, but my dc are all in secondary now so it’s tricky.

I lived in the Randstad for 18 months in the early 2000s. Most of the adults I met spoke fluent English. In my first few days there, I learnt Dutch greetings, and that in NL, it’s polite to say “please” when handing something to someone (e.g. your change in a shop). I also learnt the Dutch alphabet, as that seemed to be one of the few aspects of English that many Dutch people had trouble understanding.

The Dutch tend to drop the “n” on the end of words. This can be confusing when they pronounce numbers in English. I learnt to always check with them e.g. “you want 50? Five oh?”. They’d usually reply, “no no. FIFTY. One five”.

It took me a few months to work out what a “puntenel” was. This word was mentioned all the time on TV, yet wasn’t to be found in any dictionary. It was actually the end of web addresses “. nl”. Dutch people would also mutter something under their breath when thinking which sounded like ”ooverkiker”. When I asked them what this meant, they looked puzzled and denied saying anything. This turned out to be “even kijk, hoor”, which I think means something similar to “let’s take a look”, or “just a minute”.

The Dutch tend to be quite blunt and honest. If they think they are good at something, they will often say so. No false modesty there!

Overall, I liked living in the Netherlands. I think the Dutch have an understated sense of humour that’s very similar to the British. NL feels cleaner than the UK and their public transport system is much better. I loved making day trips to other parts of NL and to Belgium and Germany.

My DH worked for 8 years in Holland and I made the decision for various reasons to stay in the uk. We flew backwards and forwards every weekend though my kids are adult but still living at home which made it easier. We both did compressed working so that we flew Thursday evenings and came back Sundays. Some weeks he flew and some weeks I did. It helps that in the uk we only live 30 mins from the airport and there was a direct train in Amsterdam to the city we lived in. We also lived within walking distance of the train station in Holland. We owned a house in both countries. It worked well for us. Husband got made redundant in November 2019 and worked there till March 2020 and we sold up everything and just made it back before lockdown.

Anyway just another view that might be possible for you.

8 years is also when the 30% rule stops so was also a good timepoint for us for tax reasons too

I would say that the SEN system is pretty different to UK, much less inclusive, most children are not in mainstream. My impression is though that the special schools are good. But that is based on a couple of examples and may be wrong.

I'm aware at least of the system of SEN provision as it was (not sure if this continues) which is that a child has a "backpack" of funding which the parents choose how to spend.
As parents usually prefer specialist schools (despite the overall outcomes being worse for children with SEN in specialist schools) they tend to choose to spend their money on that; this also means parents are open to really "out there" interventions that would never get NHS or Education funding in the UK because they are not evidence based.
So on the face of it that's a good thing but in practice it can have unintended consequences.

@apalledandshocked I can't actually find anything telling me the ethnicity of the town it would be, but our DD is such an unusual ethnicity even here.

DH isn't a PTA/charity work type - he likes his hobbies and sharing them with the DCs, and doing things with the DCs that they like so while he will no doubt have a happy and productive retirement here (that's why he'd be the SAHD, he's soon to retire) he wouldn't make any friends in the Netherlands I don't think so it would have to be a big sell on other grounds (he'd like flat places to cycle, art galleries, travel to neighbouring countries for example).

@drspouse I see what you mean about ethnicities. I like the area that I live in because there is such a wide mix of people that everyone fits in if that makes sense. That said though, I would be happy living somewhere less diverse so long as the people were friendly (which I have found most people to be). I think the only way to get a sense of the town is to visit there, maybe a holiday once Covid is over if you are seriously considering a career change. I guess with your husband it depends on whether he would be happy with the situation you describe or not. For what its worth I think people define themselves less by work here, and more by their interests so I suspect the stay at home/work divide might be less than in the UK but I wouldnt want to put any partner in a situation where they were lonely/felt isolated.

I would be happy living somewhere less diverse so long as the people were friendly (which I have found most people to be).

I think that's OK for an adult and it's OK for a child who lives with a parent of the same ethnicity as them but our DD is adopted and needs to live in a community where she can see and get to know people who look like her... because we don't.

@drspouse

I would be happy living somewhere less diverse so long as the people were friendly (which I have found most people to be).

I think that's OK for an adult and it's OK for a child who lives with a parent of the same ethnicity as them but our DD is adopted and needs to live in a community where she can see and get to know people who look like her... because we don't.

Ahh, yes I completely see that. Sorry - I assumed that it was similar to my son who is an unusual combination (if that makes sense) but looks like a mix of me and his dad. So my main concern is avoiding racism rather than identity issues. I think the only thing to do in that case is have a look at the town. There are different patterns of migration to NL than the UK, so it might be that what is unnusual in the UK is less unnusual in the Netherlands (much larger Sri-lankan, Indonesian communties for example) but I think you would be by far the best judge! (And really sorry for my assumptions.)

I am Dutch but live in the UK and agree with the above posters, they have all made some good points.

It is very true that it seems a lot like the UK on the surface but little things are very different. Some good, some bad.

It’s a wealthy country with less stratification, you don’t see extreme poverty to the degree you see in the UK. Schools are very good but less stressful for children. Housing could be hard to get used to if you’re used to your typical UK 1930s semi or Victorian terrace - the Dutch favour open plan and there’s more new builds. Also some interesting interior choices...

Personally I would move to the Netherlands for work, nice childrens activities, child-friendly culture, nice safe places to live - but as a Dutch person I think it’s the Dutch themselves that would drive me insane. Can be very rude and intrusive, arrogant and racist - but nothing can ever be called racist because the Dutch are soooo tolerant that racism doesn’t exist... I find in a professional context as well that whereas English people are very polite and nice, Dutch people can be very blunt and rude - even if you’re the customer! I understand it as I am Dutch but I don’t like it and it disproportionately gets on my nerves.