Help with young autistic female child.

[tuliprosedaffodil]

Hello,

I haven't posted this on SEN because it's so quiet so was hoping I'd get more responses on here. Would be really useful to get input from other parents with children on the autism spectrum.

My daughter is just five. She was diagnosed at three. She is very cognitively able, has a vast vocabulary and advanced academically (so far, she is only in Reception - I mean she is already reading and writing fluently and clearly, retains knowledge, is working at more of a KS1 level for most subjects not that she's a mini Einstein in the making of that makes sense).

She has an EHCP and 1-1 support at school because she has struggled to cope with her peers, has meltdowns when she becomes overwhelmed, has sensory difficulties. All in all school has gone better than expected, with a high level of adult support she's even started to make friendships. To give an idea of the level of support she has we received mid-rate DLA for her and I receive carers allowance.

We are having terrible trouble at home though. She's holding it together at school and exploding at home. So far so normal really, I can deal with the meltdowns I'm used to it now and see them coming a mile off.

But what I am finding really hard to deal with is - and I hesitate to call it this because it sounds horrible - her manipulative streak. I should say here that were really conscious of the language we use around and to her, she forgets nothing and takes things really to heart so we don't tell her that she's a bad or naughty girl for example. We talk about good or bad choices instead.

When I say manipulative I will give you an example, but this isn't the first time she's said things like this but not to this extreme. Today, she has been awkward, deliberately back chatting, not listening - more typical five year old behaviour. After she's been told repeatedly not to mess around in the bath today when she got out I said 'oh dear it's a shame but if we can't listen to mummy and daddy then we're going to have to stop doing nice things like going to the park I'm afraid'. I also explained (because she always needs an explanation) again about safety, why we don't mess around in the bath etc.

She sat quietly whilst I dried her hair and said after 'ok mummy. I'm not going to listen so I guess I won't play with any toys anymore, I won't see Grandma, and I won't go to the park'. I agreed and said it was her choice but we need to see some better behaviour if we're going to have or do nice fun things.

Then she said in a sad voice 'Well mummy I think I'll go and live in another house. On my own, with no family and no one to love me. I will stop loving you all too and then no one will miss me'.

I was pretty gobsmacked at that. I mean she is only just five years old. How on earth has she even got that into her head? I told her calmly that would be a terrible shame, that if she wasn't here we'd miss her and that of course we would always love her no matter what.

We had a rather circular conversation for a while, with me just repeating that we always loved her no matter what and her saying that she wanted to live on her own with no one loving her. In the end, I managed to distract her, and she snapped out of it, we settled down and she seemed fine again after stories, cuddles etc. She went to sleep fine.

But I'm left here scratching my head. I mean WTF?

Anyone got any wise words on how to deal with this? She's in a stable, loving, supportive home with me, her Dad and her little sister. There is no conflict around her, she has everything she could need or want (she's not spoilt, but all needs met with some treats). I'm a SAHM/her carer, she has my full care.

Okay first of all she might be very literal in her understanding, so living on her own could be a natural extension.

So reduce messing around in the bath opportunities (worth having a think about can you mitigate, laying down thick bathmats for splashes, or putting in non slip stuff to reduce slips in the bath)

She is only little, a random threat to not go to a park at some unspecified time in the future is too abstract a punishment or admonition.

She's not manipulating you, she's five with ASD, and despite her being seemingly so able she is just a small child who really has no idea of the effect of what she says.
As mum to a son and daughter with autism I would say that if after school she is coming home and having meltdowns then there are needs not being met in school.
Are they aware of her sensory needs? Do they ensure they are met? Did she have a comprehensive SALT assessment? Are they sensitive to her communication needs?
My experience of having a very academically able and also extremely compliant ASD child in school was that she was pushed academically and because she was compliant and not disruptive school assumed she was thriving. That was, until she had a breakdown.
It's generally accepted that children with ASD are developmentally around two thirds of their actual age so instead of seeing her as possessing abilities in excess of her actual age (manipulative) it's better to see them and expect them to behave significantly younger.

First of all, taking away park opportunities is not a natural consequence of messing around in the bath. Especially with a bright child with autism, illogical punishments won’t work.

Messing about in the bath means there is no time afterwards for like a bit or screen time. Or alternatively, or baths are an ongoing issue, ask her if she wants to switch to showers. Stop fighting battles that don’t need to be fought.

We realized very early that working with dd was like negotiating with a lawyer. She remembered everything and would call you out on every technicality. Sometimes we even write out the rules and everyone signs off on them. At 12, we have mastered the process and she has a better understanding or literal and figurative language. Plus she understands that subtle negotiation instead of technical negotiation gets her further.

I once got to listen to DS’s thought process... another child offered him a bar of chocolate while dinner was cooking, I told him not to take it because it was nearly dinner time (I appreciated after maybe a better choice was to take it and keep it for after, but it didn’t occur to me)

Anyway he went to his room for a sulk and the baby monitor was still on from DD’s nap.

So complaining (working up to crying about it tbh) away to himself he went... I wanted the sweet, I’m hungry, why wouldn’t mummy let me have it... if I don’t eat I won’t grow up big and strong and then I can’t be a policeman

It ended with him appearing wailing at me... WHY DON’T YOU WANT ME TO BE A POLICEMAN?????

So I’d assume she’s taken it to an extreme like that, only you’ve not the benefit of a baby monitor to get all the missing steps, lol

Yes I recognise this behaviour from my own children and I'm not an expert but I would call this taking your power away. Some autistic children like to be in control because it makes them feel safe. They don't want an adult to have the power to make them sad. So with my own children if I say "do that again and you'll have no TV" they will say " it's ok mummy I don't want to watch TV today". If I make a reward chart to encourage a certain behaviour then after a few days they will say they don't want the reward after all.

I'm not sure what to advise as I haven't found the answer yet, but for my kids, I try to avoid using rewards and punishments as much as possible, and if I do use a punishment I try to make it instant and a "natural consequence". So for example if they scream outside we have to go in for two minutes to give the neighbours done quiet. But saying "scream again and there will be no TV" does not work with mine.

That’s not manipulation that’s her logically processing what you said and working out how it works.

Do you say her name, wait for attention then tell her what you want her to do? Is she struggling to transition between what she is doing and what you want her to do?

Messing around in bath - plug gets pulled. Not abstract future punishment. Definitely treat like 2/3 actual age. If a 3 year old said using typical 3 year old language that they would move out and not miss anyone - people would tell it as a funny story.

“We realized very early that working with dd was like negotiating with a lawyer.”

Lol, yeah... I once grounded DS for a day for going somewhere he shouldn’t have to play... didn’t stop him next time, he just waited till he had a day he was happy to stay in the next day

It wasn’t really supposed to be a negotiation, lol

I mean, (and sorry I get that I should have specified this clearly in my OP) that she's not capable of true, devious and deliberate manipulation.

It was just the reaction to me saying that there would be consequences for not listening was an immediate almost emotional blackmail stance - ok then Mum, you're going to punish me then I will say I don't love you and you don't love me and I'm going away forever - see how you like that!

The messing around in the bath was the last in a long line of misdemeanours today. She's been awkward, defiant and stroppy all day. Far too much lip! Not in the way that she is when she's overwhelmed or overloaded, especially after school, she's been more like I would describe a more typical five year old pushing boundaries.

She is really well supported at school. She loves going. I've had numerous discussions with her teacher (who is the SENCO) about what they can do to make it easier for her throughout the day so that she's not so pent up and then explosive at home. She's exhausted by the end of the day, she goes to bed and to sleep at six pm. They've done a sensory checklist, she's able to opt in and out of activities. She has her 1-1, they don't make her do anything she's not comfortable with. They're following everything in her EHCP. The Ed Psych hasn't seen her in school because of COVID.

And yes, the negotiating with a lawyer sounds very very familiar!!

Has she had an OT assessment? Sensory checklist isn't an assessment of her sensory needs? Coming home exhausted sounds like she is overwhelmed. Mine is much older now and more able to identify what's troubling her, and in an independent specialist school with an OT to regulate the environment, but school was tough when she was smaller even if she could read write spell and manipulate numbers like a child twice her age.

She had an OT assessment in January 2020 so quite a while ago (for a five year old) now. We did a private one whilst applying for the EHCP. They picked up on the fact that movement like being on a trampoline or a swing is helpful to regulate her (so we got both), she uses excess force and she also finds deep pressure helpful. We do all of these things with her and have been teaching her to notice when she needs them so she can come to us/ask for help.

She doesn’t sound especially manipulative to me OP, she’s just playing the game you started by saying well if you mess around in the Bath and generally don’t do what we say we’ll stop all trips to the park and treats - it’s a daft thing to say because it’s an empty threat - but to any small child, especially one who takes things more literally than average - it’s still a threat, so she is playing you at your own game.

So stop making empty threats, and change it to appropriate punishment you will follow through on - eg if she’s messing around in the Bath then she looses her bed time story.

@HotPenguin

Yes I recognise this behaviour from my own children and I'm not an expert but I would call this taking your power away. Some autistic children like to be in control because it makes them feel safe. They don't want an adult to have the power to make them sad. So with my own children if I say "do that again and you'll have no TV" they will say " it's ok mummy I don't want to watch TV today". If I make a reward chart to encourage a certain behaviour then after a few days they will say they don't want the reward after all.

I'm not sure what to advise as I haven't found the answer yet, but for my kids, I try to avoid using rewards and punishments as much as possible, and if I do use a punishment I try to make it instant and a "natural consequence". So for example if they scream outside we have to go in for two minutes to give the neighbours done quiet. But saying "scream again and there will be no TV" does not work with mine.

Yes, this really rings bells with me thank you. Some things to think about there.

@BaseDrops

That’s not manipulation that’s her logically processing what you said and working out how it works.

Do you say her name, wait for attention then tell her what you want her to do? Is she struggling to transition between what she is doing and what you want her to do?

Messing around in bath - plug gets pulled. Not abstract future punishment. Definitely treat like 2/3 actual age. If a 3 year old said using typical 3 year old language that they would move out and not miss anyone - people would tell it as a funny story.

Yes, we always cue her in by saying her name and give her processing time. I've learnt never the expect her to just do something straight away!

We have had similar issues with DD. She is almost 8. No diagnosis at present but I am autistic and I really think she is too. We found the more we negotiated with her, the more she negotiated back. Long term consequences have little impact. It needs to get more in the moment.

I highly recommend The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It’s helped us as parents to get a better understanding of what triggers DD, why she behaves as she does. Initially this kind of behaviour at home seems random, but this book helps you realise that actually there is a pattern and it can be stopped before it gets started. You pick your first priority and work on that first...for us, it was bedtime. DD took ages to settle. She was exhausted and got frustrated a lot..we completely changed bedtimes and we’ve seen a massive improvement. I’m not saying it’s perfect but she’s getting to sleep much earlier. She’s calmer in herself and we are able to de-escalate much more easily now. Sorting out that priority was definitely the right thing for us so I’d say the book has been really helpful.

Thanks for the book recommendation @ThePontiacBandit I've ordered it.

I've been able to look at it with a fresh pair of eyes today. I think yesterday I was a bit worn down by a day of her being not particularly well behaved in general, joined by her partner in crime (her little sister, who thinks whatever big sister does is hilarious and joins in merrily). It is difficult and exhausting - as you all know - raising a little one with ASD!

She remembered this morning. She came in our room for a cuddle first thing when she woke up and said 'Mummy, I was cross with you last night because you told me off and I don't want you to tell me off ever. But I'm not going to live at another house. I want to stay here forever.' So I just cuddled her and told her she can stay here forever if she wants to and shall we try to have a nice, happy day today.

I may contact the OT again and see if we can look at her sensory needs again, I'm sure she would work with school.

oh dear it's a shame but if we can't listen to mummy and daddy then we're going to have to stop doing nice things like going to the park
seems complicated - small children play up when they are tired, like we would too if it wasn't societally unacceptable for adults.

Hi

My daughter is 12 nearly 13 and is autistic.

At 5 we really struggled to get our head around how she communicates- in fact we still do!

She is soooo literal, her articulate vocabulary masked how differently she thinks and processes things and how she understands what we say as well as what she means by why she says.

It's worth learning as much as you can about semantic and pragmatic language.

When she was in reception, my mum picked her up from school in the car and she did not want to get in and was just refusing.. the end of a day when she was overloaded...

My mum said to her if you want to walk home then do- so my dd walked away. My mum assumed she would stop quickly, she looked in the mirror and realised she had gone!

After much panic she was found at home- she had walked all the way, crossed major roads etc...

When asked why she said 'you told me if I didn't want to get in the car I should walk'!

Lesson learnt, don't try to kid my daughter!

I learnt so much from that- she didn't do it to punish us or be naughty, just because it's what she heard.

The recommendation for The Explosive Child that @ThePontiacBandit made has arrived already. Hooray for Amazon and their before 1pm delivery service.

I have some reading to to this evening!

OP
She is reflecting you back at you.

You have her a piece of emotional blackmail. She gave you one back.

Be more straightforward and less convoluted. Keep consequences relevant and short term. For the bath I would have said something like "Sophie, you need to sit still for two minutes so I can rinse your hair. If I have to tell you one more time, then there will be no story at bedtime".

The passive aggressive "I guess we won't be able to go to the park any more" is a) bollocks and she knows it and b) vague, unspecified and not time limited.
My mother gave me one piece of parenting advice: never threaten anything you aren't prepared to carry out. Threaten rarely and threaten wisely. Much better to threaten to turn the TV off for an hour and actually do it, than to threaten they will never watch tv again and back down after a week.

*you gave her a piece of emotional blackmail

I would have followed through on it - if I said no park then we wouldn't have gone to the park. However I can totally see that it's not the right time, before bed, to say we're not going to go to the park tomorrow it's too far away. No park would be an appropriate thing to say if she was misbehaving on the way out to the park and if I did say that then I would stick to it. I can also see that in her literal mind me saying 'no park' might be taken to mean 'no park ever again' rather than 'no park tomorrow'.

I said it because we had done all those nice things that day - been to the park, done crafts, seen her Grandma (in our bubble as she lives alone). I was giving examples of nice things that we wouldn't be able to do that we had done that day, if she continued not to listen to what she was being asked to do (which had been a reoccurring theme all of yesterday). But yes - not the right time for that particular thing.

I've contacted her OT, and asked for her to call me this week to arrange an up to date and more thorough assessment. There may be other things we can try, particularly in school, to help her be regulated better.

@funkystars123

Hi

My daughter is 12 nearly 13 and is autistic.

At 5 we really struggled to get our head around how she communicates- in fact we still do!

She is soooo literal, her articulate vocabulary masked how differently she thinks and processes things and how she understands what we say as well as what she means by why she says.

It's worth learning as much as you can about semantic and pragmatic language.

When she was in reception, my mum picked her up from school in the car and she did not want to get in and was just refusing.. the end of a day when she was overloaded...

My mum said to her if you want to walk home then do- so my dd walked away. My mum assumed she would stop quickly, she looked in the mirror and realised she had gone!

After much panic she was found at home- she had walked all the way, crossed major roads etc...

When asked why she said 'you told me if I didn't want to get in the car I should walk'!

Lesson learnt, don't try to kid my daughter!

I learnt so much from that- she didn't do it to punish us or be naughty, just because it's what she heard.

This example made me smile. I have long learned even with a five year old to be careful what I say after one memorable incident last year where I told her to wash her hands in the toilet when I (obviously, to me!) meant in the sink in the downstairs bathroom. She took me at my word at put her hands in the actual toilet Yuck. My fault though, that's exactly what I told her to do.

Cue a promise from me to say what I actually meant in future and a conversation about how toilets hold germs and that we shouldn't out our hands in them, ever. She's quite good now, if I slip up and say something stupid like that she will look at me and say 'are you sure, Mummy?' and I will hastily plug my brain in and correct myself!

Lots of advice already, so one more thing for you to reflect on...you're using a lot of language for a child. And a child with a diagnosable difficulty with language comprehension. You're confusing her vocabulary with her understanding and expecting her to ub. And you're trying to get her to understand your worldview instead of trying to understand hers.
Despite what you read on Mumsnet threads, behavioural approaches are of limited use with any child. The best thing is to avoid an issue arising or mitigate the damage she can do.

• expecting her to understand the social and emotional impact of things logically playing out as you described.