Illegal school admission policy aid by LEA

[REDHEN12]

Nightmare..... before I start everything say I say is the truth and I have documentary evidence to prove it. Here we go. Time for the move up to secondary school. Family thinking of moving out of the area but not sure due to circumstances. So completed form SA3 with school choices in order of preference and sent that to LEA and waited. My boy has SEN. Finally received a letter from the LEA addressed only to me with decision notice regarding my three choices. All were refused. So decided not to move out of the area ie down south. Two days later from the decision notice received a letter from the academy school which was our third choice stating that they had received a copy letter from the LEA acknowledging that we didn’t get a place at their school and we could appeal through the schools independent panel and so we did. Day one was in the hall with all parents appealing. We new we were up against it straight away when the headmaster stood up and stated if your child has Sen needs you needn’t think your coming here as we don’t have sufficient Sen resources. Eventually we got to the day of our own personal hearing. Going into the meeting guided by the clerk to the independent panel she asked if we were no longer moving down south. This struck a cord with my wife as we had not told anybody other than the LEA in our choices of school. So the appeal meeting went ahead. We put our case according to the schools admission policy and referred to our child’s SEN needs where again the head suggested we go to another school that could cater for SEN needs. I also noticed that the headmaster had a copy of our form SA3 which fool me I didn’t pick up on. Appeal meeting over we went home and waited. Later advised we didn’t get a place under the pretext of the schools appeals policy. We stewed on this for a while and then decided to do a subject access request both to the academy we appealed to and my sons junior school before. The academy disclosed a copy of the confidential letter addressed only to me at my home address with the decision notice detailing our school preference in order of preference. The headmaster at public meetings had previously stated that if you don’t put us down as first choice you won’t get in. So thenLEA had processed confidential data which had been passed through the school to the headmaster and then the independent clerk informed of the contents hence how she new we were thinking of moving down south. Next and the cherry on the cake. The junior school also disclosed a bundle of documents which we would not have otherwise seen. The Senco officer at the junior school had rung the admissions officer at the academy trying to get reconsideration for my son. The conversation she Senco officer made a note of and put in the comms file for the child. She also sent her note by email to the local authority and her Head. Neither responded. In her notes she records how the schools admissions officer stated ! at great length that the real reason he did not get a place was that he was just too late and that he had put us down as third choice. All this means that the LEA supported an illegal admission policy contravene data protection laws as did the school and by the schools admissions officers operated a covert admissions policy. We as parents are horrified and upset. Had it not been for the subject access we would not have got to the truth. Question is has this been used against other children as well and what do we do now? P.s. yes we did subject access requests to the independent panel clerk for the minutes of day one and the minutes of our hearing and we were duly refused copies of. In the politeness of ways almost ... the school admissions officer told us where to go! Can anybody help?

Well, one thing is for sure, @prh47bridge won't be back to this thread to assist any more. And not will any other admissions experts.

Fucking hell @REDHEN12 you need to apologise to phr47bridge. What an attitude to someone knowledgeable who is trying to help you.

@ChonkyChook

I never said we won our appeal *@prh47bridge*. I said we went through every process, had the LA admit they'd done wrong but they COULDN'T take a place from another child and refused to up the intake. We got an apology and a place at a failing school.

I know you did not win your appeal. My post is clear that you lost.

If the LA made a mistake, they did not need to remove another child from the school to admit your child. Similarly, if you won your appeal, they did not need to remove another child from the school to admit your child. The admission number is irrelevant. Unless the school is genuinely so full that it really cannot handle another pupil, a child who has missed out due to a mistake by the authorities should always be admitted.

@REDHEN12

I can’t believe what you have written. Are you telling me minutes taken in a public meeting can’t be disclosed and same for minutes in our own meeting with us present. Not convinced at all about your advice to others

The clerk does not take formal minutes. They take notes. That includes the private discussions of the panel members. Those cannot be shared with you.

@REDHEN12

Let’s get this right. What you don’t know you have made up. And you think the covert preference scheme is legal. And you think it’s ok for a personal letter to be sent to someone else as well.

I inferred a few things from what you posted such as the comment about being too late to get a place suggesting that you missed the deadline for applications. I was clear where I was inferring things. If I was wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

I was clear that a "first preference first" scheme is contrary to the Admissions Code but pointed out that the evidence you have falls a long way short of proving that such a scheme is being operated.

I did not say it is ok for a personal letter to be sent to someone else. If the information about your planned move was on the application form or in a letter accompanying the application form, the LA did nothing wrong in forwarding it to the school. The fact that you cancelled your plans to move when you didn't get any of the schools to which you applied suggests that the schools were in the area to which you planned to move. If that is the case, the school could reasonably infer that you intended to move to their local area simply from the fact you had applied. They wouldn't need to see any letter you wrote to the LA. However, if you informed the LA of your intended move in a letter separately from your application it would be a potential breach of GDPR to share this with the school.

@Mumski45

Just wow *@REDHEN12*. Someone with experience and knowledge takes time to read through your OP which is actually quite difficult to read and which seems a bit incomplete, then tries to make sense of it by filling in some gaps with sensible assumptions, and then give you good advice and this is how you thank them. I'm speechless. 🤷‍♀️

this!

Redhen - prh47bridge is an expect on this.
She will give you correct sound legally correct advice on what you can and can't do and what the school and LEA can and can't do.

Just because you don't like what she says, that doesn't mean she is wrong.

@NeedSomeInfoAgain

I am just a parent, no special expertise, but this is my understanding.

On the matter of preferences, this relates to the sequence in which the LA software processes the applications. Where the LA handles the admissions process for the school, my understanding is that the the model is run initially at first preference level, then for those pupils still without a place the software runs through again at second preference level, then at third preference, then fourth. Within that, each run through also considers whether in catchment, sibling, distance etc.

If a school is named as first preference by many more people than it has places , it is likely to fill up on the first preference run. I too have heard headteachers say 'if you don't put us first, you won't get in' and I think what they really mean is 'we fill up on the first preference round and there aren't likely to be vacant places when the second, third or fourth preferences are considered'. It was a matter of pride for a local head to state at open evenings that you had to put their school as first preference or you wouldn't get in......in one sense it's practical advice if you want to maximise your chances by being considered in the first run. But it's also a form of boasting - in a competitive market (schools are a business)q, it is a matter of pride for the school to say how many people put them as first preference and keeps up the hype around the school.

If the school does it's own admissions (this can be all or part of the process), I think they get sent the application forms or information in an electronic file by the LA.
The school considers against their own criteria and sends a ranking list back to the LA which the LA incorporates back into their software. Are you saying this is where the school saw the preference level and that they automatically discounted anyone who had not put the school first?

I know others have commented, but this is SO important for people understandning the process that I want ot emphasise again.

This is NOT how is works.
If you do not get a place at your first place school, then you are considered for your second place school ALONGSIDE and at the SAME TIME as those who put it first.

The computer logistics are complex, but it does work.
You are not in any way disadvataged but putting a school second, and when head teacher stand up and say - put us first, they are talking nonsense as the system does not work that way

prh47bridge gave me advice on MN and I won my appeal and got my dd into a primary school. This was five years ago and it's changed my DD's life.

I sometimes slide into these threads having gone through the appeals process myself to say it's imperative that you understand the process completely before you do your appeal. I could have written a thesis on it afterwards. I hadn't even heard of it before.

Reading your OP it seems to me that you don't fully understand how appeals work.

What do you mean by 'just too late'? That you applied after the deadline?

if you don't put us first, you won't get in' and I think what they really mean is 'we fill up on the first preference round and there aren't likely to be vacant places when the second, third or fourth preferences are considered'
They might say it but it's not true, that isn't how it works.

Redhen - listen and learn, some great advice here. A few unanswered questions from you though.

@REDHEN12

Let’s get this right. What you don’t know you have made up. And you think the covert preference scheme is legal. And you think it’s ok for a personal letter to be sent to someone else as well.

Somebody with the correct knowledge has taken the time to help you and you are being very rude and ungrateful

Thankx for clarifying, I did say I am just a parent and it was only my understanding.

Two questions - were any of the schools listed catchment or designated schools from your address/primary? Also does your dc have an echp naming a school? If neither then not getting the schools on your list and not getting it on appeal is not surprising if they are over subscribed. As for the moving/not moving- did you apply late ? If so sen or not your child can't be considered ahead of those who did. The sharing of paperwork or not is confusing but basically the rules are fairly transparent, but I'm wondering if you fall into the same category as we did, have sen but not enough to trigger a echp

OP, is this in England? If so, I presume your DC has a secondary place at the moment, as this must have been for the current Year7 intake.

Wow I think your response to another poster was rude 🙄

@prh47bridge
I am so sorry, and I apologise for linking you to this thread. I would not have done so if I had known how rude @REDHEN12 would be.

Day one was in the hall with all parents appealing

Suggests this happened in 2019, as no mass appeals happened like this in person last year.

OP, there are a number of people here who can give informed advice, but you need to be honest and fill in some of the gaps.

Did you apply on time?
Did you apply to schools in the new area, not your current one?
Did you apply using reasons applicable under the Appeals Code?

I think it important that clarification takes place. It’s not helpful if someone states something as fact when it’s not.
It’s a serious breach of the data protection act for the LEA to send to the school a copy of a personal letter addressed to parents with the decision contents. Then for the school to process that data and pass The data on to the alleged independent panel.
The LEA have stated they do not inform any school as to parents choice ! The responder has stated they do , well they don’t and the reason why is that no school now runs ‘first preference first’ and to ensure this the LEA should not disclose parents choice and order of preference.
There should be no way any school finds out what parents preferences are ! Also when a school gives a notice of decision it should be based on the admissions criteria in that criteria no first preference first is to be stated as a criteria. When a school makes a decision it should state one at least of those criteria as it did. So why did the admissions officer to the previous school state the real reason was That he put us down as third choice ?? There are some on here that think it appropriate to follow others. I don’t we are all equal it’s nothing to do with being rude just the facts of the situation. Everything is open to debate but you should not say a individual is rude because they disagree with someone else.

To answer your questions
1 yes both application to LEA and the academy school appeal were on time.
2 two schools out of area one in. The one in are is the one to which this matter refers.
3 yes we followed the appeal code for the applicable school.

As to honest not sure what you infer as there is no dishonesty.

OP.
What of these are you trying to prove / achieve

A) That your DC was incorrectly denied a place in first round of admissions ?
a1) because he has SEN
a2) because you put the school 3rd
a3) some other reason?

B) That your DC was incorrectly denied a place on appeal?
a1) because he has SEN
a2) because you put the school 3rd
a3) some other reason?

C) That confidential information was disclosed?

D) What acknowledgement / recompense do you want?

So what is it that you want help with?

Thank you.

Whilst it's not good practice for the school to know what preference you put them on your application form, it's not illegal. Similarly, it's not good practise for the panel to have it, but it happens. I often get sent it.

The crux of the problem is do you have proof that the reason your son didn't get a place was because of misapplication of the admission rules.

Your evidence of this is a phone call (a call that incidentally itself should not have happened; once places are allocated there is no way a private call between schools should have any bearing on an allocation, or a waiting list. If you had a EHCP naming the school, or had applied under the social and medical criteria and the secondary needed more information before allocation - possibly. Afterwards- absolutely not.)

Referring to it being late - its possible the Admins officer was referring to the phone call trying to intervene being too late, rather than the application itself.

With regards to being third - again this doesn't show proof that they are incorrectly administering. It could be that they were questioning why the Senco was pushing, given you had only put the school third.

Without seeing the email and notes in question, its hard to know. It would be very unusual, and extremely hard to do, for a secondary to actually operate a list like this, as the LA would realise it very quickly when they got their lists back.

And has PRH says, Heads often spout nonsense about you needing to put the school first, usually because they don't understand the process themselves or are trying to tell applicants in a confusing way that they should always put their applications in true order of preference.

Realistically, your way forward now if you still wish to pursue a complaint about the appeal (I assume your child is in Year 8 now?) is through the ESFA.

www.gov.uk/schools-admissions/complain-about-the-appeals-process

Note, all they can do is order another appeal; they can't give your son a place.

Re. The clerks notes; Admissions Authorities are supposed to take legal advice before giving these to anyone (para 2.27 of the Appeals Code.) In reality this normally results in being advised not to, as commented before, as they will contain personal comments from each of the panelists. The ESFA should be able to get access to them though.

However, having said all that, it doesn't sound as if the actual appeal is the issue; it sounds as if your objection is to the possibility that the school misapplied their application criteria, and you found this out after your initial appeal. In which case complaining about the appeal itself would be rather futile, and all the ESFA can do is order another appeal - which at this point, you can do yourself assuming your son is now Year 8 (you can appeal once per academic year, unless there has been a significant change in circumstances).

Have you complained to the school directly and asked it to explain the comments?

It’s a serious breach of the data protection act for the LEA to send to the school a copy of a personal letter addressed to parents with the decision contents. Then for the school to process that data and pass The data on to the alleged independent panel.

No, it is not a breach at all. The decision letter is evidence for the appeal. In my experience, it is normally part of the evidence passed to the appeal panel as it helps to show that the admission arrangements have been administered correctly.

The appeal panel must be independent. If you have evidence they were not that is a serious breach of the Appeals Code.

The LEA have stated they do not inform any school as to parents choice ! The responder has stated they do , well they don’t and the reason why is that no school now runs ‘first preference first’ and to ensure this the LEA should not disclose parents choice and order of preference.

I have not said they do. I have said it is not illegal for them to do so but it is poor practise to do so before allocations are made. If I've identified the LA correctly, the second side of SA3 can certainly be passed to schools before allocations are made as it contains information they need. Some admission authorities include the entire application as part of the evidence for appeal. Again, this is poor practise, but it is not illegal, and there is no problem with the LA passing the school a full copy of SA3 as part of the appeal process. Given that they need the decision letter as evidence and the decision letter sets out your preferences, giving them SA3 at this stage does not give them any additional information.

There should be no way any school finds out what parents preferences are ! Also when a school gives a notice of decision it should be based on the admissions criteria in that criteria no first preference first is to be stated as a criteria. When a school makes a decision it should state one at least of those criteria as it did.

Agreed. As I say, although it is not illegal, it is poor practise if the school finds out preferences prior to offers being made. And the other two sentences are spot on.

So why did the admissions officer to the previous school state the real reason was That he put us down as third choice ??

According to you, the SENCO recorded the reasons as lateness and putting the school down as third preference. That doesn't mean the admissions officer actually said that to the SENCO. The SENCO may not understand the admissions process (most don't in my experience) and may have misunderstood what was being said. It may be that the admissions officer was trying to get across the fact that this was not your first-choice school and hence there were other schools you preferred, rather than meaning it had any bearing on the outcome of the admissions process.

At the moment you have a lot of supposition based on limited evidence which may not mean what you think it does. It is highly unlikely that the council is colluding with the school in allowing them to operate a "first preference first" policy. That isn't the same as saying it definitely doesn't happen but I would be very surprised given the number of people involved. Whilst you saw the head with a copy of SA3 at the appeal hearing, you do not appear to have any evidence that the school received a full copy prior to offers being made. If, as the council say, they do not pass this information to schools prior to offer day, the school cannot operate a "first preference first" policy.

You can, if you wish, refer this to the ESFA. They can investigate and, if they find that the school is indeed operating a "first preference first" policy contrary to their published admission arrangements, they can take action.

By the way, you also have the right to appeal for the other schools to which you applied.

yes we followed the appeal code for the applicable school

I'm sure you did but the question is what reasons you advanced as part of your case. Your OP talks about putting your case "according to the school's admissions policy". If you simply talked about how your child matches the school's admission criteria, I'm afraid that was completely irrelevant to the appeal and did not give the panel any basis on which they could admit your child.

@REDHEN12

I think it important that clarification takes place. It’s not helpful if someone states something as fact when it’s not. It’s a serious breach of the data protection act for the LEA to send to the school a copy of a personal letter addressed to parents with the decision contents. Then for the school to process that data and pass The data on to the alleged independent panel. The LEA have stated they do not inform any school as to parents choice ! The responder has stated they do , well they don’t and the reason why is that no school now runs ‘first preference first’ and to ensure this the LEA should not disclose parents choice and order of preference. There should be no way any school finds out what parents preferences are ! Also when a school gives a notice of decision it should be based on the admissions criteria in that criteria no first preference first is to be stated as a criteria. When a school makes a decision it should state one at least of those criteria as it did. So why did the admissions officer to the previous school state the real reason was That he put us down as third choice ?? There are some on here that think it appropriate to follow others. I don’t we are all equal it’s nothing to do with being rude just the facts of the situation. Everything is open to debate but you should not say a individual is rude because they disagree with someone else.

Well if you already know everything why are you here?

I think that what you meant to say was @prh47bridge Thank you for clarifying, it all seems a bit clearer now.

I hope your child gets into the school they want, but if you're going in with the attitude you gave out earlier I can't see how that will be helping your case