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What needs to happen practically so women can be free?

108 replies

Babyboomtastic · 11/03/2021 17:31

Obviously we should be angry.
Obviously the problem lies with the men, and it should be for them to solve, and not us. By it they haven't.
Obviously we shouldn't have to feel that we are under any curfew in life to be safe.

And ultimately the solution is that men need to stop killing and raping women.

But practically speaking, how do we get there? Our anger won't solve it, and obviously it's not going to be solved as easily as telling men to not commit these offences, as that doesn't work.

I'd like us to reclaim the streets (and also have safety in the home, which is an even bigger threat to women) so what can we do about it?

And if we need a cultural shift (which ultimately I think we do) how do we initiate that?

OP posts:
Babyboomtastic · 12/03/2021 09:01

@dreamingbohemian

It's not. It's just hard to prove something that happens in private, with no other people around, when it's usually one person's word against the other. The nature of the offence makes it harder to secure a conviction.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/03/2021 09:07

You might need to have a search to find the older posts about the deliberate stance taken by the CPS on that!

dreamingbohemian · 12/03/2021 09:13

'The proportion of rapes being prosecuted in England and Wales has plummeted to just 1.7 per cent, new figures show.

Campaigners said victims were being failed by the criminal justice system, after one woman told The Independent that police claimed her attacker could not be caught if she failed to hand her mobile phone to officers.

New Home Office statistics suggest the alleged perpetrators of more than 98 per cent of rapes reported to the police are allowed to go free.

In 2018 only 3.8 per cent of sexual offences resulted in a charge or summons, down from 5.6 per cent the previous year. Just 1.7 per cent of rapes resulted in a charge or summons last year, compared to 3.3 per cent in 2017.

Charities say the 57,600 rapes recorded by police in 2018 are only a fraction of the real figure, because many victims do not report assaults.'

Like I said. Essentially decriminalised in practice. Men know they are extremely unlikely to ever face consequences.

noego · 12/03/2021 09:14

And in Scotland they pass a hate crimes bill not protecting women. The government is run by a woman with women MSP's and it was still voted in.
The women in Scotland need to vote out those who voted for this hideous bill as a first step to saying it is unacceptable.

PineappleCakes · 12/03/2021 09:20

Thank you @LiveintheNow , will get my kids to set it up on their phones too.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 12/03/2021 09:27

The following was the closing post from Karen Ingala Smith at the webchat she did here last year. It really stuck with me. I already posted this on another thread but it's worth repeating here:

Men’s violence against women and girls is both a cause and consequence of sex inequality. Whilst perpetrators must be held responsible for their actions and behaviours, men’s violence against women is not reducible simply to individual acts perpetrated by individual men, but is a key instrument of men’s domination of women, supported and normalised by patriarchal institutions, attitudes and social norms and values.

The notion that all forms of men’s violence against women and girls – rape and other forms of sexual violence, intimate-partner violence and abuse, prostitution, FGM, pornography etc – are connected in a patriarchal society has, over the last couple of decades, entered mainstream policy and service provision – and that’s good. In fact it now has its own acronym: VAWG. But before I continue, I have to say that I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word and the way that it has illustrates what often happens when concepts that originated in feminist analysis move into the mainstream.

I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word because it allows users to disconnect from VIOLENCE against WOMEN and GIRLS. It hides the violence, it’s no longer spoken. I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word because it allows users to hide the agent – MEN. As Mary Daly, said, “naming the agent is required for an adequate analysis of atrocities.” I hate how ‘vawg’ has become a word because I am not particularly fond of acronyms and jargon. Acronyms make important information inaccessible to those not in the know. And this does not serve women’s interests. The feminist concept, the continuum of men’s violence against women, enters the mainstream and some of the critical aspects of the concept are cast aside.

The concept of a continuum of sexual violence was first outlined by Liz Kelly in 1988 and in spite of how much I despise the way that the term ‘vawg’ has evolved, seeing the connections between all forms of men’s violence against women and girls is an absolutely critical step in ending that violence. But it is an early step in a very long road and there are constantly drives to push us backwards. For example, in 2010, the then coalition government launched its strategy, the Call to End Violence against Women and Girls, but less than a decade later, the Conservative government was developing its Domestic Violence Bill and the clear upfront and acknowledged connection was overshadowed. I think this is a bad and backwards move, but I’m not here to talk about bad and backwards moves, I’m supposed to be constructively looking for solutions.

So, if we leave aside overthrowing patriarchy, the radical feminist solution - not because I don’t think that would provide the answer but because it feels out of reach to me and anyway, we can’t afford to wait until patriarchy is overthrown to make changes - we need to start with firstly, connecting the forms of men’s violence; secondly, naming the agent; and third, recognising the patriarchal context and the critical role of sex inequalities. For feminists, identifying this is the easy bit.

The next bit is harder. Carol Hagermann-White developed a model to explain factors at play in violence against women and girls (men’s violence, as I’d prefer us to say every time) that I find very useful. She groups the factors into four main subsets:

  1. Overall structures in the social order, macro level
  2. The social norms and practises that regulate daily life, meso level
  3. Day to day interactions in the immediate environment, micro level
  4. People’s individual life histories, ontogenetic level.

And so, if we accept this model, it follows that the interventions that we need to make will need to address all these levels simultaneously and in a consciously connected way. To expand on that, and I can’t do this justice in the time I have, but I hope I can give you a flavour:
Addressing overall structures in the social order, the macro level interventions, requires policy responses that tackle all formal and substantive forms of sex inequality, normative models of heterosexual masculinity and femininity, the sexualisation and objectification of women and girls, women’s rights – and also include intersecting structural inequalities around class, poverty, race.

To recast the social norms and practises that regulate daily life, the meso level reforms, we need to do away with male entitlement, we need to improve criminal justice responses, from the laws themselves to conviction rates, making sure most if not all perpetrators are held to account by the state,. We need to eliminate discriminatory practice, overhaul attitudes to pornography and prostitution, in fact abolish prostitution, and ensure all services and interventions are informed by a feminist approach – including those outside the core anti-violence agenda (for example, welfare reforms must also be considered from a sexual equality and anti-men’s violence against women perspective; it’s clear that for something like universal credit, this didn’t happen).

With interventions at the micro level, we need to look at how the media represents women and violence against women, abandon sex-role stereotypes, challenge myths around sex inequality and men’s violence against women and girls, break down peer support (at all ages) that enables men’s violence against women and girls and reinforces sex inequality, make sure our specialist services are adequately resourced, and look at employment and education practices.

And finally, with individuals, we need to look at the attitudes and beliefs of each individual, how they are formed and how they can be changed, how we rear children, how we deal with and address early childhood trauma. We must make sure perpetrators are held to account by their family and peers and make sure the emotional and cognitive abilities for reflection, critical thinking and taking personal responsibility for our actions are developed and nurtured in all of us.

Tinkering about piecemeal with any of the things I’ve pointed out will not make a long term or significant change. We need a visionary, brave, cross-cutting, long-term and unashamedly woman-centred approach. It will have to be multi-disciplinary; it will have to have cross party support because changes like this go beyond what can be achieved in a governmental term.

Do I believe it is possible? I don’t know. Do I believe it is likely? No. There just isn’t the will. Patriarchal societies, in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, authority, social privilege and control of resources, ensure that power stays with the powerful and advantaged; it’s the same with socio-economic class, it’s the same with race. Sure, there will continue to be steps to address men’s violence against women and girls. Mostly these will have originated from feminists. But as we saw with the continuum of men’s violence against women, usually they’re watered down if they become formal policy responses – and that’s if they ever do at all. As Audre Lorde said, “the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.”

The best trick patriarchy ever played is convincing most people that it does not exist. Sadly, most people are not feminists – but we are and we see it. And we are not going away. And whether we realistically expect to end men’s violence against women, girls and children or not, it isn’t going to and we can’t let it stop us fighting.

Jenala · 12/03/2021 09:32

I don't think there's anything we can do to entirely stop the most severe male violence. There will always be extremely damaged, mentally unstable men around and men will always be physically stronger than most women. These two things combined means there will always be a danger. The threat of increased punishment, curfews etc won't stop the type of men who are willing to commit the most heinous crimes. Those men don't stop and consider the likelihood of being caught before deciding whether or not to do it. The most I imagine they think about is possibly about the best way to do it to minimise being caught. We might be able to reduce some of the numbers of damaged men if we treated boys and young men better, especially in the care system and in terms of mental health, but we don't. Adult men who are fucked up aren't going to be educated out of it. Celebrating the good things about boys, so they aren't alienated, while promoting respect and prosocial behaviour has got to be part of the way. It's got to be earlier. The only thing I can think of truly preventative is a very high level surveillance state, cameras everywhere, everyone tracked and their movements in a gov database etc. But no one would want that and it only works until someone finds a way round.

Domestic abuse, rape when the victim knows her rapist, general shitty behaviour can probably be reduced with a combination of increased punishment/likelihood of conviction, and education, especially in terms of boys and young men, but it won't go away. But a man who wants to rape, for example, does it despite knowing its wrong, or even because of it. I don't believe there's some secret key that will make those men wake up and not do that.

I've got to the point that I think there will always be that tension. Between what I believe - that women should be safe from danger and able to go where they want, when they want, without fear - and what I believe to be the reality, that that's not really possible and despite not wanting to, I would advise my daughter to take all the precautions we currently take.

We're animals with a violent evolutionary history who somehow live in enormous groups of millions without descending into chaos, most of the time. I don't think we can get away from that.

This is why the debate over women's spaces is so important. We simply can't give them up. Too many men are predatory and dangerous and our biology puts us at a disadvantage in a situation involving physical safety. Much as I hate it, it's fact and we should all be fighting for the sanctity of our own spaces.

Bordois · 12/03/2021 09:47

We live in a society where public displays of sexual acts and gratification is now something to be celebrated. Anyone objecting is a bigot and "kinkshaming" and deserves abuse and threats.

Misogynistic language is rife, calling for women to be "kerbstomped", hit with a brick or to die in a fire is cheered on.

Young boys seeing these things being played out see this as normal behaviour. Young girls see this as normal behaviour.

Bordois · 12/03/2021 09:51

But a man who wants to rape, for example, does it despite knowing its wrong, or even because of it

I'm at the point now where I believe that sometimes they don't know its wrong, and even more sadly, the raped woman doesn't realise either.

I've seen too many threads on here from women who are in bad situations playing it down or flat out denying it. Whether that's a survival mechanism, denial or genuine ignorance that they are being abused is not easy to discern but at the start of the thread they seem oblivious to the fact that they have been raped.

dreamingbohemian · 12/03/2021 10:20

I agree. For a lot of men, it's not that they sexually assault someone and think it's okay, but they delude themselves into thinking it's not really sexual assault. For example they didn't use a weapon, or the woman was 'asking for it' or it's just 'harmless fun' or whatever.

There was a famous study a few years ago where they asked male college students if they would ever rape someone and the vast majority said no, but then they asked if they would ever do certain things that effectively amount to rape and a much higher percentage said yes.

Basically there is a taboo around rape (except for sociopaths) but that doesn't mean men don't rape, it means they find ways of thinking about it as not-rape.

Unfortunately the police and justice system usually side with the male interpretation.

TheDoctorDances · 12/03/2021 10:30

The police need to believe women when they say they’ve been assaulted, harassed or raped.

That would be a damn good start.

PinkPlantCase · 12/03/2021 10:43

I hate how so many books, films and tv series feature rape and female nudity they is completely unnecessary and unrelated to the plot or storyline.

That can fucking end.

Blueberries0112 · 12/03/2021 11:10

“We live in a society where public displays of sexual acts and gratification is now something to be celebrated. “

A lot of men think it is liberating to women like this, yes, I am glad women don’t get in trouble anymore but it was never meant to objectify them either

AtLeastThreeDrinks · 12/03/2021 11:23

Thanks for that @ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings, really interesting comments.

Male violence is always prevalent in conservative culture. So yes, a left-leaning, female leader would be a great place to start.

Kinsters · 12/03/2021 11:25

I think there needs to be a much bigger focus from the police on "minor" assaults like groping, flashing, verbal abuse. Not everyone who commits these crimes will go on to rape/murder but pretty much all of those who rape/murder will have committed minor offences first. They need to identify these men/boys before their behaviour escalates. Plus just making this behaviour unacceptable in society would be great. Maybe men need a kind of driving licence, enough points and you have to do some mandatory course/be evaluated by a psychiatrist and not released until you're no longer a danger to women.

For domestic violence I think a previous poster mentioned universal basic income. I agree with that. It would give women a lot more financial independence.

Bordois · 12/03/2021 11:29

@AtLeastThreeDrinks

Thanks for that *@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings*, really interesting comments.

Male violence is always prevalent in conservative culture. So yes, a left-leaning, female leader would be a great place to start.

With the current state of the left and their complete capitulation to gender ideology im not so sure that's true anymore.
Kinsters · 12/03/2021 11:50

Bordois I wish we could like comments. A lot of the social media posts I've seen about this issue talk about "cis men" or "those who identify as women". It's sickening.

enigma16 · 12/03/2021 11:58

Compulsory education/training for all boys/men in schools and workplaces.

*General education for males from school age about what is acceptable and respectful behaviour was fundamental, Garthwaite said. “We should be educating boys about what men should and shouldn’t do.”

Encouraging women to report to the police, designing safe public spaces, and criminalising all forms of sexual harassment – including making misogyny a hate crime – would all make predators think twice, she added, as would training in workplaces such as bars, clubs, hotels and taxis on how to effectively respond to reports or instances of sexual harassment or abusive behaviour.

“I’m glad that women have not given up, that we’re still asserting our right to have freedom,” Garthwaite said. “But boys should grow up feeling ready to be held accountable, and girls should feel able to not have to think it’s their fault.”*

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/12/men-must-challenge-other-men-womens-safety-campaigner-al-garthwaite-sarah-everard

OhioOhioOhio · 12/03/2021 12:07

Abuse needs to actually be recognised and the police should step in and persecute the perpetrator. Its all nicely hidden under the rug.

bendmeoverbackwards · 12/03/2021 12:14

Everyone needs educating, men and women. I'm saddened that we seem to live in a walk on by society.

There was a post on the other thread about a woman being verbally abused by a man on a crowded train. Not ONE PERSON said anything. Just shocking.

I hate this culture of 'telling tales' is a bad thing, children are told this fro a young age. This is how bullies get away with it. Children need teaching from day 1 - if you see wrong-doing, TELL someone. No matter how small.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 12/03/2021 12:19

The organisations which identify and criminalise the men who do this are, in the main, lead and staffed by men. How is it ever going to get better until abusers are being held to account by someone who isn't just looking out for their own kind.

SerendipityJane · 12/03/2021 12:23

None of any of these suggestions will make a fart in a hurricanes difference as long as you have women members of parliament determined to shit on women.

evilkitten · 12/03/2021 12:23

Jenala makes a good point about education. If we're worrying about how to deal with the problem through punishment and policing, then we've already lost. The problem is men, and that's what needs to be fixed.

Men are grown from boys. Growing up as a boy is quite an odd journey - typically there are very few male role models - most of the adults around you are female. This is down to male violence and abuse - 'good' men can be reluctant to engage with children for fear of being seen as paedophiles etc.

We need to find a way to safely get men more involved in parenting children and in childcare/primary teaching/sports.

As the boy goes through puberty, he starts to be seen as a risk to women, and the previous social structure he has is withdrawn. He no longer gets the benefit of the doubt, and generally gets picked on by society. You need people on your side, and hence you turn to your friends. Only listening to the views of other teenage boys during this formative stage is problematic.

Teen boys need good male role models - someone they can aspire to be. Not a distant footballer or Youtuber, but someone they know and can talk to. We need more cross-generational apprenticeships, we need pubs and social settings where people of different ages mix. We need better mental health support for teenagers. We need to find a way of letting teen boys know they're valued, and that they have a place in society. As a practical example, cadet groups are fantastic for providing structure and values to teen boys.

Without this, we have teenagers growing up thinking aggression and porn are normal, that nobody cares about them, and why should they care about anyone else. Much of this is a phase, and most men grow out of it by the time they're 25 and in relationships. But many won't.

Lad culture is a problem we need to fix by replacing it with something more positive.

dreamingbohemian · 12/03/2021 13:20

Jenala makes a good point about education. If we're worrying about how to deal with the problem through punishment and policing, then we've already lost.

I respectfully disagree. Radical social change has always required new laws and policies, and consequences for breaking them.

Education and goodwill are important but they will not solve the problem on their own.

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