Help me stay strong tonight or am I wrong?

[Sstrongtn]

NC - DD aged 8 has been having increasingly violent outbursts, she’s always had a reactive personality but is generally kind and sweet. It’s a definite regression.

Partly lockdown and partly my own fault, as my stress of wfh with kids (single) in lockdown has made me shout quite a bit and not always parent calmly and gently which she needs. I’ve recognised it, changed and hopefully school and routine will help. Am also investigating some private counselling for us both as this is not the child she wants to be or the parent I am. Although she does always want her own way, I’m not blind to a bit of naughtiness in there!

Anyway tonight she got a new toy, she’s faffing about refusing to eat her dinner for the 3rd night in a row (she will then ask for food at bedtime and be up until 11). I gave her fair warning that if she didn’t focus and eat I’d remove the toy just until she had, then she could have it back. 15 minutes and a final warning later, still not eating, so I removed the toy and said she could have it back when she ate.

Total meltdown, she kicked me, at which point I told her she’d now lose the doll for the time it took to eat plus 10 minutes, it just escalated, she attacked her sister, called me names, threw things, tried to smash a glass vase, did throw a heavy glass candle, eventually I held her in her bedroom to protect her little sis and she fell over in a temper and scratched her face on a corner (that should be fun explaining to school). I stayed calm, cleaned it, held her while she still screamed it was my fault. When it all started (after the kick) I had told her to stop or the toy would have to go until tomorrow morning.

She’s now calm and has gone off to eat her tea, shutting me out of the kitchen so I can’t see her do it.

I know, I absolutely know, she will come out and expect the toy. When I stand firm and say tomorrow morning it will all start again, I’m going to struggle to get her sister to bed, or her to sleep for school as she won’t give in, it will be horrific. But if I do give in then she’s going to do this again and again.

So - do I stay strong, try and manage her sister and the damage as best as I can.

Or do I accept that she’s eaten and apologised and give her the toy?

I think I struggle as it’s difficult to manage her and her sisters needs when she “goes”, and that this is partly the affect of lockdown, my previous shouting, and her upbringing when she was a baby (ex DH literally gave her everything and was EA to me, I left when she was 2.5 and her baby sister 6 months).

Help me either stay strong or tell me I fucked the whole thing up and should accept the apology!

Stand firm or your word will mean nothing.

So sorry you are going through this. This sounds like a similar situation to my friend’s whose daughter is the same age and she experienced abuse when she was pregnant. Are you able to speak to a psychologist for help as she may have attachment issues. It helped my friend enormously.

Sounds tough OP.
Have you heard of a book called The Explosive Child? An approach based on collaboration and teaching your child certain social skills and emotional awareness. It might help on the longer term

Actions have to have consequences. What you are teaching her that it’s fine to be violent as long as she says sorry and then she can go back to everything being okay. You are also teaching her little sister that her older sibling has no consequences to her actions.

Her not having the doll whilst she ate was not a punishment for having been physically violent to her sister. Her sister will grow up thinking physical violence from her older sister is okay. It’s NOT.

The doll would be gone for quite a while if I were in your shoes. You’re in the thick of it tonight so I’d concentrate on getting through the evening, but please look back at how your daughter’s behaviour makes you feel and how this has affected your confidence as a mum. Remember you’re the parent and you aren’t asking anything unreasonable of your child.

Stand firm, the toy is gone until the morning.

@Aquamarine1029 that’s what I’m afraid of!

@Milomonster yes I’m seeking the counsellor for that, her little sis is fine, elder also just stays well out of the way, but age wise she was bang in the middle of childhood development when the marriage was breaking down and he ramped up the abuse. I should also mention they have been at his for a week and her behaviour always skyrockets when she comes back, he’s a headfuck. Eldest can see through him now which makes me sad but actually grateful.

@Tickledtrout thank you I’ll Amazon that tonight!!

She’s the most sensitive faye little thing which is beautiful but it makes her the most vulnerable too.

Look, there's obviously something more going on here than just a naughty child. Shes only 8 years old and you say she's usually sweet and kind. Your account very much reminds me of dd at 8 and at 10 has now been diagnosed with ADD. Maybe worth looking into ADD/ASD &similar, see if anything resonates with you

That sound very difficult. I think part of the problem was turning the removal of the toy while she ate her dinner (perfectly reasonable) into a punishment for kicking you. In my head they’re two different things with different consequences. I’d have separated the two out. Reinforced no toy until after dinner and then dealt with the violence separately. She won’t make the link between not getting her toy back and kicking you.

I wonder if, when she asks for the toy, you have a conversation with her about the violence, explain firmly what the consequences for that will be and depending on what you decide give her the toy or not.

Was she back at school today? Could that be causing part of the reaction?

"Say what you mean, mean what you say"

Wise words from my grandad, who also said every child is a potential killer. 😁

Stay strong 💪 parenting sucks at times.

@Goodmorninglights it makes me feel a total failure, we are a talking not a violent angry family. I’m ashamed we are here and I need to stop it right now. My kids have always been thoughtful and kind, it’s awful.

Thank you all, I’m going to stand firm, and warn her if she goes off again the toy will be given away tomorrow and she won’t ever be getting it back.

This is not going to be fun! May need to rope in eldest help sorting youngest to bed which I don’t like doing as it’s not her “job”, but I need to focus on keeping middle one physically away. (She’s 12 little one is 6).

Compromise. Withold the toy, say 10minutes more, then say because you did calm down and eat, I will let you have it in 10 minutes, but not until tomorrow if you kick off. Give her an either/or and don't make her wait too long.

@XiCi it’s funny you say that as a couple of years ago I was struggling to understand the way she thinks/works, nothing like this but just a bit “off” I asked school about having help and they brushed me off and said it’s all totally normal. But if she focuses on something she literally can’t move her brain away from it. Other DDs would think “ok eat = toy and she means it. So I’m not a “soft” mum, but in her head she doesn’t get that she’s turning something that would take say 10 minutes, into a worse situation. She can’t break off from things she focuses on at all, doesn’t register until I am really “look at me listen, we need to do X before Y”, she’s clever, like last night when she knew she might struggle for school she predicted a likely “issue” that would make her late and wrote herself a list and little signs like “brush teeth, do hair”, so she wouldn’t lose focus and be late (we still were as she suddenly decided she needed a different coat and absolutely couldn’t go without it).

I’m rambling now but you get my point!

I just wanted to say I know exactly how you feel. My daughter was exactly the same at her age. Single parent of two girls from an abusive relationship. She was quite unmanageable at times and I gave into them both as my mental health was really poor and every day was exhausting. Child psychologist said there was nothing wrong with her and it was all down to my mental health. She was diagnosed with autism two years ago as an adult, my four year old grandson is also in the process of being diagnosed. I’m not saying you’re daughter has autism but you’re not alone and I understand why you’re tempted to give in, it’s almost like being back in a abusive relationship. I know it’s not for the best in the long run but I would definitely not judge you for it.

Personally I would remove the toy permanently.

Has she had E number, food colourants , can affect moods eg brilliant blue etc etc worth thinking about
When my dc was 7 they’d do the same , like a red rage. Took a while get used to checking EVERYTHING even now 18 years later I still make the occasional mistake and they are still affected by the colourants

Single parent here too. Could you give her a dinner you know that she'll eat so you don't have to fend off that battle tomorrow? It does seem like the rules are all overlapping. Maybe pick one thing? I'd consider a bigger lunchtime meal and then something like pancakes for dinner. Change up the routine to make everything more manageable, even if just for you.

I know exactly what you mean Sstrongtn, I was the same, just knew something wasn't quite right and same, school kept brushing me off because she was meeting expectations when really, she is very intelligent and I knew she should be doing better. Do your own research and don't be brushed off if you think something is wrong. All the stand firm and tough punishment advice just doesn't work if your child isn't NT, it's a totally different ballgame.

we still were as she suddenly decided she needed a different coat and absolutely couldn’t go without it
Yes, another thing that resonates re ADD dd. She'll suddenly decide she can't wear a certain coat or that her shoes are uncomfortable and will go into hysterics about it. It took me a long time to realise that she wasnt being naughty or awkward or just a pita, that it was a sensory issue and it really distressed her.

Wow this is a difficult one. I think most parents at one stage or another have found themselves in a similar position where they have given a consequence and wonder if they should follow through with it.

Personally I like the suggestion to give it back after 10 minutes because she did calm down and eat eventually. Maybe in future say there will be no toys at the table for dinner.

My son went through an explosive stage and I found that helping him calm when he had a melt down was more useful than threatening more punishment ( which seemed to add fuel to the fire). Of course things need to be removed if they are being used unsafely or they are distracting at dinner time, I’m not suggesting never taking things away.

Can you daughter talk to you once she’s calmed about what happened or what she thinks would help her calm when she gets upset/frustrated/angry etc.

Hi OP

Another single parent - she sounds very very like my eldest DS who is now on the pathway to being diagnosed with ADHD ( he had a meltdown this evening after school as well - think being back was all too much). He struggles with emotional regulation and is very sensitive and has sensory issues but makes home life extremely difficult (I also have a younger DC). He also scratches and hits himself.

This may not be the case with your DD but it might be worth exploring - I’ve learnt I have to deal with him in a very different way ( and often in a way other parents probably wouldn’t approve of!). Suspect it’s too late now but in these circumstances I would give the toy back if she has eaten and apologised.

Meant to add it might be worth trying to find a good child educational psychologist for her as opposed to a counsellor - an Ed psych helped my DS a lot with understanding and giving him strategies to start to cope with his emotions and lack of regulation.

Also just to say hope you are OK - it can be very hard as a single parent with a child who verbally and physically attacks you

BigmouseLittlehouse could you access an educational psychologist via the NHS or did you go private?

I have to say OP, your post sounds quite chaotic to me and had me confused. There's no clear limit on what you expect of her. I wouldn't be linking punishment to food.

Anyway tonight she got a new toy, she’s faffing about refusing to eat her dinner for the 3rd night in a row (she will then ask for food at bedtime and be up until 11). I gave her fair warning that if she didn’t focus and eat I’d remove the toy just until she had, then she could have it back. 15 minutes and a final warning later, still not eating, so I removed the toy and said she could have it back when she ate.

So she faffed around the previous two nights - nothing to do with the toy.

What does fair warning mean and did she acknowledge that you had said it?

Removing the toy until she has eaten...if she's not hungry and isn't coming to the table you've created a situation where you're forcing her to eat to get her toy back. It just feels wrong.

Total meltdown, she kicked me, at which point I told her she’d now lose the doll for the time it took to eat plus 10 minutes

Your punishment for her kicking you is to lose a toy for ten minutes?? You need a bit more self worth! It seems quite arbitrary. My 8 year old understands time, but has no concept of it really when she's doing something else. The time it takes to eat (but she's not hungry, doesn't like it...makes it seem endless) plus 10 minutes is not concrete enough to understand.

it just escalated, she attacked her sister, called me names, threw things, tried to smash a glass vase, did throw a heavy glass candle, eventually I held her in her bedroom to protect her little sis and she fell over in a temper and scratched her face on a corner (that should be fun explaining to school). I stayed calm, cleaned it, held her while she still screamed it was my fault. When it all started (after the kick) I had told her to stop or the toy would have to go until tomorrow morning.

The toy would have to go. Again it's not a very explicit threat/warning.

My DD has to be at the table when we eat, but how much she eats is up to her. If she refuses, she doesn't eat. We don't have time for her to so for more before bed time so it's not really an issue here but if she refuses her lunch, it's kept and returned when she asks for a snack.

She would have lost the toy here after she kicked me. And yes, you need to hold firm on that.
In fact, depending on her attitude when called to the table she might have lost it then, not least because it would save on the inevitable tantrums when being asked to put it down to get ready for bed.

I let my autistic child earn back whatever has been lost otherwise there is no incentive to behave. Works well for us.

Prevention better than cure. Once in meltdown they are operating on the emotional part of the brain and can not be reasoned with.

Try a firm bear hug if she/sister is in danger keep her head away from your face. Don't talk. Gently rock in one direction.

She has just gone back to school. Just come back from dad's and may be at end of tether. (Explanation not excuse) Pop bottle, shaken up at school and dad's. You took the lid off.

Think how you handled it. What went wrong, what went well. Where could you have headed off the meltdown earlier? Fewer demands? ( IE favourite food for first day back, quieter environment, easier food to eat? Weighted blanket)

Do not get rid of her toy. She did what she needed to get it back.

Do calming activities daily. Might be massaging feet. It is worth it.

Sorry for the random sentences...just calming down.