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Original poster

Kids dad won't give them back

37 replies

PipersOrange · 01/03/2021 10:25

I've kept some details in this deliberately vague but could do with some advice as I'm at a bit of a loss.

My friend is separated from her kid's dad, unamicable - she's tried multiple times to go no contact. He picked them up from school last week and is now refusing to give them back. SS have recommended that he doesn't see them (previous emotional abuse / drugs) however nothing concrete has been agreed yet. The school have said she cannot pick them up early and she is scared of a showdown at the gates if she tries to get them today.

What can she do!? SS aren't giving any guidance and she's getting pretty upset by the whole thing. Does she just have to wait until he says she can have them? She's cut all contact with him and tried to mediate through a third party but he is not going along with this.

I was tempted to suggest she makes up a doctors appointment to pick up early but that will just cause this to escalate in the long run..

OP posts:
Ffsffsffsffsffs · 01/03/2021 10:47

If she has parental responsibility (and there are zero safeguarding issues about her care) then she absolutely can collect them from school.

Tell her to go there now and wait for them to be released to her!

OhCaptain · 01/03/2021 10:49

The school can’t stop her, can they?

Where I am they wouldn’t be able to!

Snowymcsnowsony · 01/03/2021 10:50

As easy as df collected them so can dm.
She needs to apply for a residency order today.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Families
Ffsffsffsffsffs · 01/03/2021 10:50

In fact, the safeguarding team at school should be in contact with the Designated Safeguarding Lead for advice as to releasing the children into dad's care if ss have stated that he shouldn't see them - they would be opening themselves up for trouble if they knowingly released kids into his care if it has been stated so.

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/03/2021 11:00

they would be opening themselves up for trouble if they knowingly released kids into his care if it has been stated so.

The school have no power to stop either parent collecting their child from school - there’s no legal reason not to hand them over to their dad, SS have recommended he doesn’t have them but they’ve not secured that through a legal order so the school wouldn’t be in trouble for letting them go with him. Similarly OP you can collect your children from school at any time for any reason. If you’re anxious maybe pick them up at lunch time (to avoid disrupting their class), but also speak to SS about your concerns that your child isn’t safe with their dad and see what they can do about assessing that risk more fully.

Ffsffsffsffsffs · 01/03/2021 11:06

@Jellycatspyjamas

they would be opening themselves up for trouble if they knowingly released kids into his care if it has been stated so.

The school have no power to stop either parent collecting their child from school - there’s no legal reason not to hand them over to their dad, SS have recommended he doesn’t have them but they’ve not secured that through a legal order so the school wouldn’t be in trouble for letting them go with him. Similarly OP you can collect your children from school at any time for any reason. If you’re anxious maybe pick them up at lunch time (to avoid disrupting their class), but also speak to SS about your concerns that your child isn’t safe with their dad and see what they can do about assessing that risk more fully.

If op tells school that ss claim there is a safeguarding concern around the children in dad's care, they have a duty to investigate before releasing them to him.

Sure, it could be a false claim, but they absolutely need to follow protocol which should involve contact with ss if they are already in the system.

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/03/2021 11:12

The school should be in contact with SS, yes, but they have no legal power to stop him taking the children, in fact they could be in hot water if they did. SS can’t instruct the school to not release the children without a court order to that effect, and it sounds like there isn’t one in place.

Stompythedinosaur · 01/03/2021 11:18

You need to see a solicitor to get a residency order.

Agree the school cannot stop you collecting early (and I would do this).

Let the school know the situation.

traveller11 · 01/03/2021 11:29

We went through this in September but were on the other side (DSC's mother was trying to take them back with threats to step all contact). Here's what we did.

Contact social services to report this so it's on record.

Contact school - if SS have actually said they shouldn't be in his care unsupervised then the school can put in safeguarding measures to ensure the child is picked up safely.

Contact local court for an emergency order
Contact solicitor for help with this - sounds like you may need someone who knows the legal mumbo jumbo to get the best results.

Until you have an interim order, homeschool or work directly with the school to allow the safest and least disruptive pick ups for the children.

traveller11 · 01/03/2021 11:32

Also, I recommend obtaining the previous reports social hold on the children via a freedom of information request so she has it all in writing what was actually reported/recommended.

If reporting the incident again to social doesn't get any guidance, ask for a manager to speak to. She needs to go full on Karen for this.

This can be useful for court if it comes that far.

StoneColdBitch · 01/03/2021 11:36

She needs to get a court order regarding the time each parent spends with the children. I would get a solicitor, but if she can't afford to she can self-represent. If she isn't having any contact with the children at all she could ask for an urgent hearing. In the absence of a court order, there isn't much anyone can do. Even if she does collect them from school today, there's nothing to stop Dad collecting them tomorrow...

LolaSmiles · 01/03/2021 11:41

School can't prevent her collecting her children.

Your friend needs to speak to social services and then contact the school to make them aware that social services are aware of safeguarding concerns about the children being in the father's care. Then it's on record and they have to follow procedure.

The central thing to be aware of is that their father could also remove them early if he still has parental responsibility and there's no orders to say otherwise.

Mysillystory · 01/03/2021 12:43

Your friend can absolutely pick the children up early.

Borntohula · 01/03/2021 12:48

Emergency court order and she needs to go to the school ASAP.

Siddalee · 01/03/2021 12:51

To those of you who say school can't stop her collecting the children- what do you think will happen if she goes to school and they refuse to hand them over? Schools are now very secure buildings and there's no easy access to children (for lots of really good reasons)

I'm a headteacher and Ive refused to hand children over in the middle of the day on three occasions for three different reasons, all of which involved safeguarding concerns.

LolaSmiles · 01/03/2021 12:54

Siddalee
As a head you know that there's got to be bloody good reasons not to hand a child over to their parent.
Assuming there's no safeguarding concerns about the OP's friend, and no order saying she can't take her children home,then I would have been surprised if the school had much of a leg to stand on by refusing to allow a child home with their mum. Happy to be corrected though as I'm not in headship.

ChloeCrocodile · 01/03/2021 12:55

what do you think will happen if she goes to school and they refuse to hand them over?

I'd call the police if the school refused to hand a child over to a person with parental responsibility. Without a court order in place the school have no legal right to refuse to hand over a child.

Siddalee · 01/03/2021 13:04

@ChloeCrocodile That's exactly what I advised the parents to do when I refused to hand children over.

Its always been drummed into me as a Head that I stand in loco parentis for children during the school hours. Therefore, if something happened to a child that I'd allowed out of school, I'd be responsible.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't hand children over in this case, just that it may not be as easy as some posters are saying just to turn up and collect the children from school

Siddalee · 01/03/2021 13:08

Giving it some more thought- assuming the OP is in England, the children are either in school because the parents are key workers or because they are classed as vulnerable.

If they are in school because they are classed as vulnerable it will be even more unlikely that they will be handed over unquestioningly

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/03/2021 13:18

Its always been drummed into me as a Head that I stand in loco parentis for children during the school hours. Therefore, if something happened to a child that I'd allowed out of school, I'd be responsible

You don’t stand in loco parentis when the child is with their actual parents - that’s a misunderstanding of the concept which is purely in place to allow you the necessary responsibility to care for children while in school.

In the absence of a legal order, in extremis you could be charged with abduction - I’ve know social workers to be deregistered for removing a child from risk at home without parental permission or a relevant order. The police are the only people with the power to remove children at risk pending an emergency order.

I’m in Scotland but I’m pretty sure the law isn’t too different on this across the U.K. - you can’t just refuse to return children to their parents.

Siddalee · 01/03/2021 13:37

@Jellycatspyjamas

This is my last reply as I'm back to fully focusing on work in a minute- at my school we regularly have to prevent children from being collected by parents. Like I said, I'm not saying that the school will refuse to release the children, just that they might

You're right that only the police can remove children from a home, but this isn't removing children.
If there are any circumstance where allowing a child to leave my supervision will put them in danger, I wont allow them to leave my supervision. If I have any concerns, I can refuse to return children to their parent.

If a parent turns up and we think they are under the influence of alcohol, we don't allow them to go with the parent until SS have investigated and said the child can go- been here till 6:30pm in the evening on this one

If a child has made an allegation during the day, we don't allow them to go with a parent until SS have investigated and said the child can go. I once missed an evening flight at the end of a school term due to this

If a parent A (who the children live with) phones up terrified that parent B (who the children don't live with)will try to take the children out of school to gain control of their residency I have refused to allow parent B to collect the children before the end of the day. But I did impress upon parent A that they need to get residency formalised in a legal way for it to happen again.

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/03/2021 13:47

The point in two of those situations is that there’s an ongoing SS investigation which may result in a child protection order being granted. Even so, if the parent insisted on their child being returned you’d be on a very sticky wicket if you refused to do so, if the parent contacted the police, the police might use their powers but you have no power to detain a child away from their parents

Again in the last instance you give, if parent B involved the police the child would be handed over to their parent unless there was an immediate risk or a legal order in which case the police would take the child to a place of safety.

I’ve worked with schools where between us we’ve been able to persuade a parent to leave their child in school and engage with the investigation process but if the parent insists the child needs to be returned to their care or a child protection order sought.

Original poster
PipersOrange · 01/03/2021 15:05

She went and picked her son up early from school - she's now worried about what happens every other day. The school advised against it as it sets a precedent for the dad to do the same thing...

Every solicitor she has phoned won't take legal aid right now - should she be going through something like Rise?

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 01/03/2021 15:11

OP She needs to speak to social services and get their advice given she's claiming their father is a safeguarding concern.

School are right that it could set the precedent for the father, which is why she needs to get proper advice.

traveller11 · 01/03/2021 15:33

@PipersOrange

She went and picked her son up early from school - she's now worried about what happens every other day. The school advised against it as it sets a precedent for the dad to do the same thing...

Every solicitor she has phoned won't take legal aid right now - should she be going through something like Rise?

She doesn't need a local firm - my partner's ex used a firm in London who accepted legal aid

But for now she should at least put in the court application and make a start on the documents. She can represent herself if needed, and means her ex can't necessarily get a solicitor in time too so it's equal footing if both repping themselves