Lack of sleep

[Caspianberg]

Eurgh
I’m.just.so.tired

Ds 9 months hasn’t slept more than 90 mins at a time in 7 months. Last night he woke 13 times between 8pm-5.30am..

I’m actually so tired I feel like am going to pass out virtually every day.

I think I maybe got 3hrs total again last night, broken up into a million 20 min slots.

Why won’t he sleep?

Pre Answers:

1. yes he settles himself to sleep at bedtime.
2. no he isn’t fed to sleep at bedtime or naps
3. he naps x2 per day. Each nap 45min bad day, 90mins good.
4. yes dh is also up during the night with him.
5. he eats loads

Hi Hun have u tried following a plan like this...we follow a plan like this but for our 2yo xx

Oh dear, I've had similar and it's awful

Where does he sleep at night? Own room, your room in bedside crib or in your bed?

Ditto naps, are they mostly in usual bed or in pushchair/other?

Does he self settle for naps or do you have to hold/push?

How do you settle him when he wakes in the night?

Are you still doing night feeds and if so how many?

Look at Lucy Wolfe on Instagram. She's brilliant and has a great book called the baby sleep solution. It does get better I promise! Even though it doesn't feel like it.

Gosh that sounds awful. Mine didn't sleep through until I stopped feeding them at night. Before that he was awake every 2 - 3 hours.

45 min naps sound normal, DD and a lot of babies don't do looong naps till they're over 1

8-10 is a crap time for sleep

Tbh when DD did this at about 10m we did CC. She carried on for an hour the first wake, and then slept til 7am, the next night she slept 7-7. Revolutionary.

Where does he sleep at night? Own room, your room in bedside crib or in your bed?

He sleeps in our room, in cot. From about 4/5am I lose the will to live after the repeat wake ups and he often co sleeps then.

Ditto naps, are they mostly in usual bed or in pushchair/other?

He naps in pram. Morning nap outside usually whilst I’m out, afternoon varies.

Does he self settle for naps or do you have to hold/push?

I push pram. At bedtime he self settles in cot fine.

How do you settle him when he wakes in the night?

Varies. Dh and I try and soothe him in cot if possible. But often he goes from waking to hysterical super quick, then he’s only calm being taken out and cuddled. Often dh will try in cot or arms on and off for ages, but he will only go back to sleep being fed at least 50% of the time

Are you still doing night feeds and if so how many?
Yes. Probably 3-4 feeds still more nights. I’m trying to cut down, but as above, it just leads to dh trying to settle him an hour, then us trying to let him settle in cot with us stroking face and he gets all worked up and vomits!

I'd put him in his own room and see if that makes a difference. If he's waking every 90min it sounds like he's not joining his sleep cycles properly, so you might be disturbing him during light periods.

@olderthanyouthink - it’s not just 45mins for naps though, but often all night long. A good gap is probably 2hr/2.5hrs max in between wakings.

Would you consider moving him into his own room?
Would you consider cutting out the night feeds?
How do you feel about some sleep training involving crying? (Ferber method / controlled crying for example)?

DC1 was a terrible sleeper, he was overtired and I was at my wits end. I was dead against sleep training and letting him cry. But he would cry if he didn't get what he wanted which was a feed or to be held. So in the end we cracked and decided to sleep train. I got and followed advice which was to go cold turkey on the night feeds (he was old enough, 10 months), using whatever other means to settle him (in practice this meant taking him downstairs, distracting with music, holding him to sleep most of the night - it was a tough few nights!) and then once he'd got used to going back to sleep without milk, get him falling to sleep in his cot instead of in our arms. I wanted to try gradual methods but they weren't working so we did controlled crying which was horrible but it worked.

Sleep is very important for baby's development and wellbeing. And for parents too (they need us to be well!) So IMO the crying is worth it for the end goal.

A lot of mumsnetters and others are very anti sleep training but I do wonder if they were just lucky and had naturally good sleepers.

I concluded that you either have to sleep train or accept that you are going to bed share and breastfeed on demand all night; IME there was no middle ground sadly. Of course everyone is different, babies included.

I’m a one tricky pony when it comes to sleep. Cosleep. Try giving nurofen and liquid before bed to see if it’s teething pain.

Sounds painfully like DD at that age

sarahockwell-smith.com/2015/11/18/what-the-heck-goes-wrong-sleep-wise-at-8-10-months/

She woke just as often in bed with me on on her own, white noise or no, it got better eventually. She still doesn't sleep through at 2 (she is at the extreme end and needs looking at for things like apnea)

@Ohalrightthen - he hasn’t got his own room yet. It’s being built. I don’t think we are disturbing him though as often he’s already waking several times before we have even gone to bed. Although right now I’m so tired I am trying to go to sleep at 8pm also.

There is an app called Huckleberry which I've found very helpful, they also have a blog and there are general sleep tips for free, and there's the option to pay a fee for personalised recommendations. I like it because they don't just push one solution, there's an acknowledgment that different things work for different babies/families. Anyway it might be worth checking it out.

Otherwise there are a million different sleep books out there ranging from Sarah Ockwell-Smith to whoever it was who advocated CIO/extinction method (I didn't rate the former and wasn't interested in the latter!)

@NameChange30 - I’m not against sleep training as such. But he does already go to sleep without being fed to sleep, and he does get calmed down in arms and then self settle back in cot often, just it’s so frequent.

I’m not really sure about letting him cry. I know I know. But if I put him in cot to go to the toilet 2 mins for example, he literally works himself up and vomits. Or if we don’t pick him up when he wants it he has started holding his breathe so turns blue.

Also.. I don’t mind co sleeping. But we never get much sleep when he does join us at 5am sometimes. If he goes back to sleep it’s ok, but half the time he wants to just climb over us and escape.

He’s already walking, so should be tired as never sits still

I feel like I have tried most of the suggestions.

Oh and typically he’s actually napping in his pram at the moment, for 1 1/2 hrs so far, even though the builders are next door making a racket. So he can sleep longer, sometimes.

Loads of sympathy - neither of my dc slept despite me trying every bloody thing recommended on mn (except leaving them to cry which is didn't want to do).

I vividly remember how awful it was. There's nothing quite like long term sleep deprivation!

What helped me survive was that I would often go to bed as soon as dp got home from work at 6 and sleep until midnight, with dp responsible for everything except bringing them to feed. Then I would do most of the night waking, but dp might do the early morning. At the weekends we would put on the calendar whose turn it was for a lie in when. Life was literally about maximising the sleep we could get!

It did get better, though. My dc are much older now and sleep perfectly well. So hang on in there!

I'm afraid I don't know the solution if they get so worked up they vomit, I think you're supposed to calmly clean it all up and then start again, but I can understand that would be really hard.

Self settling in his cot at bedtime is good but are you in the room or do you leave? And ideally he should be doing the same for naps and night wakings too.

@NameChange30 - he settles at bedtime either in room alone or with me just in my bed if I try and get some early sleep as well.

Is he old enough to not be fed at all at night? I don’t want to stop feeding him if he needs it and some feeds he does feed for 15mins and seems genuinely hungry. He won’t take bottle, dh tried water last night in bottle and beaker.

And no, I’m not willing to leave him to cry, vomit, repeat.
But then I’m still in the same pattern of constant night wakings and have no idea how to reduce.

I would be happy for him to wake twice still, so not even asking for no wakings.

Mine would also get worked up and vomit, just how some kids are, it's more stressful for some than others

I'm pregnant and my milk is drying up and my daughter is/was heavily reliant on my milk so by the early hours of the morning we had her giving up on the boob and asking for food and water she's eating more in the day now but still not quite enough to last the night

I don't think they need night feeds at that age but obviously if they are used to having them, their body will expect milk at that time and be hungry if they don't get it. There are different ways of reducing night feeds, you can go cold turkey which seems brutal but is kind in some ways as it's very clear and consistent (no milk at all so they quickly realise they won't get it and stop crying for it) or you can cut down gradually, that didn't work for me as DS would just cry if I unlatched him before he was ready to unlatch himself, and it can be tricky to withhold feeds at some times but not others as they won't understand why. I think the ideal/easiest way is if they just start sleeping through without waking for a feed. But to do that they'd need plenty of practice at self settling between sleep cycles. He's already doing it at bedtime so why don't you try for naps? Get him napping in his crib instead of in the pushchair. Maybe once he can do it for naps he might do it more at night as well.

I have a vague recollection of reading some suggestions about how to get around the issue of being in the same room if you want to teach independent sleep, things like having a screen between crib and parents' bed, temporarily sleeping elsewhere while you sleep train (eg sofa bed or mattress in living room or something).

OR you embrace cosleeping and your partner sleeps elsewhere to give you and baby more space to be comfortable in bed.

Also if you are breastfeeding and decide that you don't want to feed at certain times (eg first part of the night) you could stay out of the room, sleep elsewhere so he learns that if you're not in the room he doesn't get milk... don't know if that would work, he'll probably cry for it to begin with as he's learned that crying gets him milk.

Yes I might have to try night weaning somehow, or reduced.

And some naps in cot might be a good idea. I tend to use pram for convenience tbh, as then I can get stuff done and not be tied into naps, but I could try one nap a day..or maybe il get dh to try at the weekend if I chicken out

Is he on 2 naps at day? I would suggest that you sacrifice a few days of freedom and stay at home for at least one nap each day (preferably both) so he can nap in the cot. Then if and when you've got him napping nicely in the cot - and hopefully sleeping a bit better at night - you can go back to having some naps in the pushchair. He just needs practice sleeping in there and linking sleep cycles.

I'm by no means an expert btw, it's just a suggestion!