nursery - children outside all day in the snow

[jlm122]

I just wondered if any other nurseries are doing this.

Children playing outside all day, on warmer days not a problem but today it's snowed all day, i collected DD and she didn't have her gloves on, her hands were freezing she could barely move them, got her home and got her wetsuit off and her sleeves were wet and cold i'm assuming from hand washing. Feet were freezing, the nursery put a statement out a few weeks ago asking parents not to ask staff to take the children inside as they can't due to COVID.

I don't feel this is right but on the other hand i'm a key worker so need to send her, she's settled and will be starting school in September so i'm not sure if moving her to a different nursery would be the best thing for her.

They said when she came out that she got a little bit cold, then we got in the car and DH felt her hands and saw she could barely move them, got angry and wanted me to turn around to go back and speak to them, I said he wouldn't solve anything being so angry so just drove straight home, she said she'd had fun and had been throwing snowballs but i also think her dads reaction had made her think she might be in trouble for having cold hands so she clammed up a bit :(

I believe that forest schools and other outdoor nurseries usually have a warm indoor space for the children to access. I think they have shelters such as yurts that can stay very warm, where they can snuggle up with books and rest etc.

Being outside is good for children in many ways and I am quite interested in the forest school nursery models but having the ability to get out of extreme weathers is essential - whether that be blazing sunshine or subzero temperatures.

The nursery I work at is a mix of time inside and outside. We have to do more cleaning of toys and resources of course but we haven't significantly changed our general way of running our sessions. Parents aren't allowed into the building and children and staff are kept in their own groups as far as is practicable but that's all. We haven't had a positive case so far and haven't had to close any of our rooms.

You are definitely not BU. Our DS goes to a very outdoorsy nursery on a farm with a major forest school element. They spent some time out in the snow this morning and for another period after lunch but were inside for the most part throughout the day. I imagine DS would be absolutely miserable if he was made to be out in the cold all day. He doesn't cope with cold hands or feet.

When do they do art? Phonics? Music? When do they play in the home corner? Do puzzles? Do baking activities? How do they wash their hands properly?

Well, ours made picture frames out of wood, their own paper from wood pulp and paint dye from plants. They also used twigs and flowers and leaves for paint printing and making pictures. Drawing with mud and painting rocks. Musical instruments made out of natural objects. Our nursery had those dangly wooden things like chimes, tambourines, rattles, shaker things (as you can tell I'm really musical!). Phonics I'm not sure, they did lots of reading stories to them though. There was a home corner with mud kitchen and dolls and stuff and also jigsaws and those shape puzzle things. They did baking, pizzas and biscuits mainly, biscuit decorating etc.

They had a toilet, changing area and sinks for hand washing. They also had a tarp shelter for when it's really wet. Match - October they have a hot lunch inside as well. It's only for 3+ though, no tinies. And it's obviously not for everyone. If DC had hated it I wouldn't have sent them. The nursery had an indoor nursery with garden as well as the forest school nursery so I could have moved them in to that, and staff are very communicative about how much the kids like it or not. I'll be trying DC3&4 at the forest school nursery when they are 3. I'm not sure DC4 will like it though, so I'll closely monitor that. It's an extremely popular nursery with a long waiting list for the forest school section so if kid's aren't happy there they let you know.

BUT op hasn't signed up for this and the nursery doesn't seem properly set up for it, so I'd be concerned. Plenty of nurseries are continuing indoor provision.

These wet suits are just a layer of polyester, right?

I'm sorry what the actual?? People have gone mad, it's like nothing apart from Covid matters anymore. Keeping toddlers outside in this weather is next to neglectful. Being outside for long periods today would have been uncomfortable and miserable. I'm afraid in your position I wouldn't be able to keep sending her. Their 'risk assessment' is a crock of shit.

the one my daughter has is one of these so it's more coat material but an all in one, most of the kids go with one of the thin wetsuits with a coat over the top

It’s a no from me.

My DC were playing in the garden today for 20 minutes. One is a toddler and got his gloves soaked in the snow.

They said they’d had enough so we went in. My youngest’s hands were red raw. I felt awful because he was saying that they hurt so I put them inside his bobble hat and got him some warm milk.

That was after 20 minutes. All day out there must be miserable.

I’d be looking for alternative childcare.

@Updatemate - Yes, that’s what I mean. You can make picture frames and paint with mud, and you can cook sausages over a campfire or whatever. You can do all those things in three hour sessions once a week. You’d get pretty fed up of doing them all day every day.

Forest school is one of those things that sounds great. And it is in short bursts. But the reality is that eight hours of it every day would be too much for anyone.

I bet the kids wander round aimlessly looking miserable after the first two hours.

You need a variety of different experiences in a nursery. If you don’t have that, the children get bored.

@mouldyhouse101l I suggest you try spending the entire day outside yourself, in freezing temperatures but the " appropriate clothing" and see how you find it. Absolutely nuts and dogmatic to suggest that there is nothing wrong with leaving kids outdoors in these conditions. No amount of clothing would make that ok and to suggest otherwise is beyond ridiculous. Guessing you are trolling!

Mouldyhouse101, that sounds horrid!

Are you not worried about the development of other skills. What about musical movement or expression when you are head to toe in layers?

* It's fine for children to be outside most of the time (though I think today is pushing it), but it requires an extra level of vigilance from the staff. The staff at the OP's nursery don't sound up to the challenge.*

Don’t go and put all the blame on the staff who most likely don’t want to be outdoors all day in this absolutely freezing weather either. The nursery sounds extremely unprofessional in their announcement to parents especially when they threatened that staff could be fired for not abiding by the rules!! Please whistleblow to Ofsted OP it is neglectful.

@jlm122 small children being outside all day in this weather is not on at all. The Nursery's email sounds very unprofessional too. I really don't like how they've told parents that the staff are at risk of losing their job if you ask them to take the children inside. To me, it sounds like you're not allowed to question them on this at all, which you have every right to do.

If I was in your position, I would be considering whether I wanted my child to remain at this setting.

My 15 month old son is at a outdoor setting. All the children eat outside. They have semi indoor spaces to retreat to though which have underfloor heating to 15 degrees where they can do indoor activities and nap whilst still layered up. They have multiple layers and changes of clothes. Double layers of gloves, wet suits and snow suits, 2 layers of trousers underneath. Clothes are changed multiple times a day to ensure they stay dry and warm.

Despite this the setting's risk assessment this week showed it was too cold to operate normally so they will all be inside a properly heated space this week as the risk from the cold outweighs the covid risk.

That's outrageous op. One of my daughters has chilblains from a walk outside for an hour. Your child was out all day.
I think its absolutely not on in this weather. I'd complain. I'm positive you won't be the only parent!

Don’t go and put all the blame on the staff who most likely don’t want to be outdoors all day in this absolutely freezing weather either. The nursery sounds extremely unprofessional in their announcement to parents especially when they threatened that staff could be fired for not abiding by the rules!!

I mostly meant management, tbh. They don't seem to have put proper procedures in place. But it is also the staff's fault as well. If little children are going to be outside all day, then the adults in charge of them need to make sure that the children are safe and comfortable and it doesn't matter how unhappy and resentful the staff are at being stuck outside all day.

Good grief it sounds like childcare in ancient Sparta. If very small kids are not dressed correctly and have wet sleeves, feet etc it wouldn’t take much for them to risk hypothermia. Catching covid isn’t good but neither is being frozen for hours either. It’s not acceptable.

The nursery sounds awful. Paying through the nose to send your child to freeze outside all day and receiving emotionally blackmailing, unprofessional emails to say you dare not raise it with the staff. No thanks! My daughter would not be returning there and I'd be making a complaint. Dd (2.5) goes to nursery and whilst they have outside time daily its certainly not all day and the vast majority of activities are inside. They manage risk with temp checking, hand washing and ventilation

[quote mouldyhouse101]@Abracadabra12345

No, I've been out all day.
With children.
[/quote]
Do you realise there’s a pandemic on and we can’t just magic clothes up atm? I’d hope to god any children spending long periods of time outside are well cared for as well kept warm and dry in appropriate clothes. Moreover that the parents had been given the heads up and guidance on how to dress their child well before the current weather or the children provided with appropriate waterproof gear.

This is not the same as case with op at all. She absolutely has a right to complain, ask for the risk assessment and ask for adjustments to be made and / or complain to ofsted.

My dd used to wear the TOGZ suits op. You could get one in a larger size to put over the top. The waterproof material is pretty thick. But as I said in my previous post, the school should be providing these and they should be very very heavy duty for all day play.

Sounds awful and no need to be outdoors all day covid risk can be managed appropriately with cleaning, bubbles, washing hands etc, my child has been going to nursery throughout this pandemic due to me working and they are inside the whole time apart from some outside play for break when weather appropriate and they have only had one positive case the whole time.

I would move nursery if mine changed to outdoor play only and sent that inappropriate and unprofessional email, does not sound like they would even listen to any complaints and are just doing what they think is best for them rather than following government guidence and doing what is best for the children.

Can they explain how they can provide their usual standard of care and activities outdoors? And explain why they feel the need to change to outdoors only when other nursery settings are continuing with their usual set up?

This is an odd policy from the nursery, I know of no other normally indoor early years setting that is doing this. Increased outdoor time yes but not enforced. The statement sounds terribly unprofessional too. I'd be looking to move her or arrange alternate care for now, however in the mean time if you need to send her she really does need better clothing. I assume by wetsuit you mean a puddle suit. Ski wear is more appropriate with some thermal layers, buy a size up of most and you'll get more use plus more room to layer- look on marketplace, eBay and decathlon (who are open for click and collect) also go outdoors stores are open - both are budget places. It's not too cold to be outside, the last beast from the east ours schools closed for a whole week even in the city where we live as roads were impassable, me and 2 dc (2 of us suffer from raynauds) used to hike every day to meet friends and spend hours in the snow I think our maximum was 10 hours. Meanwhile on social media people down south where it was 10 or more degrees warmer (was minus 17 here in Scotland with wind chill of minus 20 or more) complaining that their schools were open and they were expected in, because it was too cold for their dc to be outside to do the 10 minute school run - nonsense! You definitely need to address the lack of gloves and the wet sleeves both in writing to management and in person, as pointed out far colder countries than us have outdoor settings but if the dc come appropriately dressed and dry it's the staffs job to make sure they stay that way - put spare gloves in DD's pocket fold sleeves back from the ski wear. Also remember it could be 10 degrees next week for all we know. February weather Varies massively.

Also add the coming home caked in mud shouldn't be an issue at all if dd is happy - we have fully outdoor holiday clubs running here in Scotland this week (I think they are the only type open) . My friends dd went yesterday and she showed a pic of her smiling dd absolutely caked head to toe in mud including the hair that was outside of her hat and her face. She had the best time. No one cares if the outdoor wear has mud stains after washing.

*Do you realise there’s a pandemic on and we can’t just magic clothes up atm? I’d hope to god any children spending long periods of time outside are well cared for as well kept warm and dry in appropriate clothes. Moreover that the parents had been given the heads up and guidance on how to dress their child well before the current weather or the children provided with appropriate waterproof gear.
*
To be fair OP has been aware of this policy since July, this is not a freak weather event it was well forecast well in advance.

Gosh I wouldn’t be happy with this. DD’s nursery are operating as normal within their bubbles - they’re inside apart from playtime. They enjoyed playing in the snow yesterday. DD’s hands get very cold through mittens and she wouldn’t cope with your set up. I fear she takes after me - I have to wear gloves even in mild weather. All the kids I know at different nurseries are inside too.

If the nursery doesn't feel it can open safely by having children inside, it shouldn't be opening at all. I would be looking to move my child straight away.