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What is wrong with being 'woke'?

118 replies

Whyistheteacold · 22/12/2020 21:28

The original meaning of being 'woke' was being aware of social inequalities, specifically racism. It's usage seems to have been subverted to a negative thing, it suggests an insencere concern for issues, being overly sensitive or just plain silly.

If being woke is an insult, the subtext is that speaking out/being concerned about injustice or issues likes racism is also bad... Am I missing something obvious?

When did it become wrong or a weakness to make yourself aware of the issues that other people may have?

OP posts:
PeppermintSoda · 23/12/2020 11:05

See also "Health and safety gone mad"

IamTomHanks · 23/12/2020 11:12

7Days I don't think most of the people using the term "woke" as an insult are referring to any kind of theory, rather just using it as a way to insult people they don't agree with or whose ideas make them uncomfortable.

People are giving out that the 'woke' have a certain set of ideological positions and don't brook any disagreement.

They absolutely are. They are using it as a blanket insult for people who are left leaning. And in this thread alone they've implied that those who are left leaning are supportive of pedophiles, misogyny and violence against women. Which is mind boggling.

And wow do you know it when you've slipped up, even innocently over something trivial like a newly outdated term or whatever.

I've yet to actually ever see or hear of someone who has been "cancelled" because they genuinely slipped up. What I usually see is people saying things like that to excuse overt insults and racism and try and pass it off as "oops, nobody ever told me nigger was insulting, gosh don't go getting all PC on me".

CrazyToast · 23/12/2020 11:22

I used to be proud to call myself woke and a social justice warrior because it meant fighting to improve people's lives and aware of injustices.

However now it has been taken over by virtue signalling, self-righteouness, cancelling, vicious bullying and totalitarianism--- which also means it is doing much less good, focussing on policing other people rather than understanding complex issues and helping others.

How did something so good, turn so bad? When egos and social media got involved.

goodwinter · 23/12/2020 12:07

@IamTomHanks

7Days I don't think most of the people using the term "woke" as an insult are referring to any kind of theory, rather just using it as a way to insult people they don't agree with or whose ideas make them uncomfortable.

People are giving out that the 'woke' have a certain set of ideological positions and don't brook any disagreement.

They absolutely are. They are using it as a blanket insult for people who are left leaning. And in this thread alone they've implied that those who are left leaning are supportive of pedophiles, misogyny and violence against women. Which is mind boggling.

And wow do you know it when you've slipped up, even innocently over something trivial like a newly outdated term or whatever.

I've yet to actually ever see or hear of someone who has been "cancelled" because they genuinely slipped up. What I usually see is people saying things like that to excuse overt insults and racism and try and pass it off as "oops, nobody ever told me nigger was insulting, gosh don't go getting all PC on me".

I am very left (socialist views), I am a feminist, I am against racism and classism and discrimination in all forms. But I can still recognise the growth of harmful identity politics and purity spirals. I completely agree that there is a contingent of seriously prejudiced people who are as you describe, but I can promise you that that's not all there is to it.

Off the top of my head, a woman got majorly harassed and doxxed on twitter because she used a hairstyle for her Animal Crossing character that was intended for black people (afro puffs/"space buns", literally two hair buns with textured hair across the top of the head). The original tweet has now been deleted but I'm sure you can Google.

madmarchmare · 23/12/2020 12:15

I've yet to actually ever see or hear of someone who has been "cancelled" because they genuinely slipped up.

Are you kidding me? It happens ALL THE TIME

dividedwefall · 23/12/2020 12:25

The word 'woke' is now associated with narcissism, privilege and hypocrisy, thanks in no small part to certain members of the Royal family. It is now associated with cancel culture, suppression of free speech and promotion of some people's 'rights' over others, rather than the equality we all want.

The gender-woke crew, the climate change woke crew and the BLM crew have turned ordinary people away from the left, and Labour. The movements have also probably done more to harm their own causes than anything else.

froggywentacarolling · 23/12/2020 12:39

Both "wokesters" and "anti-wokesters" are exactly the same and behave identically badly at extreme ends.

Extreme "anti-wokesters" are equally caught in purity spirals where every word and thought is policed for evidence of Unacceptable Opinions, and literally nothing matters except slavish adherence to the ideology. I consider myself gender critical but the extreme group think, the way other women's words are scrutinized for the tiniest hint they have "drunk the KoolAid" (drinking the Kool Aid meaning believing TWAW, and therefore a hater of women, and probably two seconds away from abducting women on the street and selling them for parts) and anyone considered to be insufficiently GC is cancelled instantly.

Yes I know that "wokesters" do this too, and the massive gender double standard (where men can abuse or even kill transwomen and basically get away scotfree, while women can't even demand the right to consent to sex without being mass abused and smeared as a T**F) is despicable and an example of how the MRA has infiltrated and is using trans issues to attack women. But extremists on both sides do it.

There are posters who are so single-minded about trans women they are on the record as saying they would rather vote for a extreme misogynist serial sexual predator who's been accused of sexual assault/rape by something like 30 women, been accused of sexual assault by CHILDREN, who used rape as a form of marital "punishment", who is on tape bragging about "grabbing women by the pussy", who has spent the past four years doing everything in his power to deny women basic rights like reproductive rights, and is generally the worst horror show imaginable for women - some GC posters would vote for him purely because Kamala Harris puts the words "pronouns: she/her" in her social media profile indicating that she possibly maybe hypothetically might not be 100% anti-trans (never mind the fact she may easily have included that in her profile only because she felt pressured).

If you condone and support a serial rapist who actively attacks women's rights just because his opponent puts "she/her" in her social media bio you have fallen very far down a purity spiral.

There's also clear evidence that far right groups including white supremacists groups exploit and co-opt GC feminism and try to align the cause of GC feminism with right wing ideology in general, both in an attempt to bolster support and soften their own message, but also IMO often it's an insidious attempt to attack GC feminists by painting us as racists.

I've seen loads of threads on MN about race/racism (that literally didn't mention anything about women's rights, trans, or feminism) that have been taken over by people making very convoluted arguments that basically boil down to, "Anti-racists are Woke. Wokesters are also pro-trans. Being pro-trans means you're anti-women. Ergo anyone who is anti-racist is against women. Ergo if you support women's rights you must be pro-racism. Yay racism!"

Arguments about "woke" always wind up being dominated by discussion about trans issues, even if the original debate was something else. It's totally wrong and a bad faith tactic to bring trans issues into a thread about racism or a thread where black posters are sharing their personal experiences of racism as a way to undermine and attack them.

CaptainMyCaptain · 23/12/2020 12:41

@IamTomHanks

You can see how insidious racism is when you look at the transformation of this word as just one small example.

Yup. Just look in this thread. People are using it as a slur and away to shame people who have different opinions then them, accusing "woke" people of engaging in things like cancel culture or bullying, but what are you doing when you use it as a slur?

Inviting people to the conversation? No. You're forcing them to shut up for fear of coming across as virtue signaling or not supporting women's rights, or being so open-minded your brains will leak out, or whatever the rightwing buzz phrase of the month is.

Hypocrisy and appropriation at it's finest, but I'm not sure what else to expect from MN anymore.

This exactly. People on here are saying what 'woke' means to them e.gWoke culture has become an extremist culture- intolerant of any diversity of opinion and is used to bully people into cringing submission.

“Woke” seems no longer to be kind, or to recognise different (sometimes competing) rights outside the party line.

And applying it to everyone who expresses an opinion about racism, the environment etc. It's the usual 'You're brainwashed but I'm a free thinker' line. (sheeple and so on)

froggywentacarolling · 23/12/2020 12:43

Oh and I've been called "woke" and accused of engaging in "identity politics" (which is apparently the very worst thought crime that exists, among anti-wokesters) literally just for posting that I was upset at another poster screaming N*GGER at me.

The poster who screamed N*GGER at me was upset because I said I didn't think Meghan Markle was the devil and didn't deserve a hundred threads about what an evil monstrous narc lying abusive whore she is.

But sure keep defending anti-wokesters. It's those evil black people who hate racism who are the real problem!

ClutchingMyPearlsAppropriately · 23/12/2020 12:46

@froggywentacarolling 👏👏👏

Finally something balanced. They're both two sides of the same coin. Can't be arsed!

Empressofthemundane · 23/12/2020 15:41

I think it makes sense not to worry about defending the word “woke” but instead putting the energy into finding ways to connect on priorities and how we might all agree on how to make the world a better place for more people.

BlueThistles · 23/12/2020 18:48

the word should be removed from society... it's such a stupid word.

AgeLikeWine · 23/12/2020 19:09

I agree with what President Obama said about ‘woke’ culture :

“This idea of purity and you’re never compromised and you’re always politically ‘woke’ and all that stuff, you should get over that quickly. The world is messy; there are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws. People who you are fighting may love their kids, and share certain things with you. I do get a sense sometimes now among certain young people, and this is accelerated by social media, there is this sense sometimes of: ‘The way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible about other people, and that’s enough.‘

Like, if I tweet or hashtag about how you didn’t do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself, cause, ‘Man, you see how woke I was, I called you out.’ That’s not activism. That’s not bringing about change. If all you’re doing is casting stones, you’re probably not going to get that far. That’s easy to do.”

CaptainMyCaptain · 23/12/2020 20:09

The problem is people using the word as an insult to discredit the views of people who don't think like that.

ListeningQuietly · 23/12/2020 20:55

A woke friend told me that biology had changed and that people could change sex
and that I should educate myself about Trans women.

When people deny reality it is hard to engage
as they are so woke they are asleep

Thisisworsethananticpated · 23/12/2020 23:56

froggywentacarolling

🙌🙌🙌

Mummyoflittledragon · 24/12/2020 06:02

@froggywentacarolling

Both "wokesters" and "anti-wokesters" are exactly the same and behave identically badly at extreme ends.

Extreme "anti-wokesters" are equally caught in purity spirals where every word and thought is policed for evidence of Unacceptable Opinions, and literally nothing matters except slavish adherence to the ideology. I consider myself gender critical but the extreme group think, the way other women's words are scrutinized for the tiniest hint they have "drunk the KoolAid" (drinking the Kool Aid meaning believing TWAW, and therefore a hater of women, and probably two seconds away from abducting women on the street and selling them for parts) and anyone considered to be insufficiently GC is cancelled instantly.

Yes I know that "wokesters" do this too, and the massive gender double standard (where men can abuse or even kill transwomen and basically get away scotfree, while women can't even demand the right to consent to sex without being mass abused and smeared as a T**F) is despicable and an example of how the MRA has infiltrated and is using trans issues to attack women. But extremists on both sides do it.

There are posters who are so single-minded about trans women they are on the record as saying they would rather vote for a extreme misogynist serial sexual predator who's been accused of sexual assault/rape by something like 30 women, been accused of sexual assault by CHILDREN, who used rape as a form of marital "punishment", who is on tape bragging about "grabbing women by the pussy", who has spent the past four years doing everything in his power to deny women basic rights like reproductive rights, and is generally the worst horror show imaginable for women - some GC posters would vote for him purely because Kamala Harris puts the words "pronouns: she/her" in her social media profile indicating that she possibly maybe hypothetically might not be 100% anti-trans (never mind the fact she may easily have included that in her profile only because she felt pressured).

If you condone and support a serial rapist who actively attacks women's rights just because his opponent puts "she/her" in her social media bio you have fallen very far down a purity spiral.

There's also clear evidence that far right groups including white supremacists groups exploit and co-opt GC feminism and try to align the cause of GC feminism with right wing ideology in general, both in an attempt to bolster support and soften their own message, but also IMO often it's an insidious attempt to attack GC feminists by painting us as racists.

I've seen loads of threads on MN about race/racism (that literally didn't mention anything about women's rights, trans, or feminism) that have been taken over by people making very convoluted arguments that basically boil down to, "Anti-racists are Woke. Wokesters are also pro-trans. Being pro-trans means you're anti-women. Ergo anyone who is anti-racist is against women. Ergo if you support women's rights you must be pro-racism. Yay racism!"

Arguments about "woke" always wind up being dominated by discussion about trans issues, even if the original debate was something else. It's totally wrong and a bad faith tactic to bring trans issues into a thread about racism or a thread where black posters are sharing their personal experiences of racism as a way to undermine and attack them.

It isn’t because KH signs off with pronouns. It’s the further dismantling of women’s rights. On the one hand you have a vile male, who believes men to be superior to women; women that is, who should be chained to the kitchen and service men’s needs. But recognises biology. On the other, you have a woman, who does not and in so doing is subjugating women in every level, right down to her thoughts; all this despite professing to be pro woman. It is far more complex than this, of course. Yet very different from what you are saying.
Mumisnotmyonlyname · 24/12/2020 09:29

It's a stupid phrase used by right wing people to demonise anyone saying anything too left sounding for them.

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