What is wrong with being 'woke'?

[Whyistheteacold]

The original meaning of being 'woke' was being aware of social inequalities, specifically racism. It's usage seems to have been subverted to a negative thing, it suggests an insencere concern for issues, being overly sensitive or just plain silly.

If being woke is an insult, the subtext is that speaking out/being concerned about injustice or issues likes racism is also bad... Am I missing something obvious?

When did it become wrong or a weakness to make yourself aware of the issues that other people may have?

I always thought being woke was a positive thing, but on MN I've often seen it used as an insult, I was curious as to why.

When it was initially used it was a positive thing. It simply meant someone was "woke" to social injustice. Basically, that you understood that institutionalized racism and prejudice exists and you acknowledge that.

It was then co-opted by right wingers to mean virtue signaling, and that was the end of it's positive meaning.

Because it let the dangerous in and tries to normalise it.

The love is love mantra that was supposed to be support for gay relationships became support of pedophiles, (sorry minor attracted persons, vomit).

Supporting prostitutes to be safer and to find a way out, was replaced with sex work is work. Making punters normalised and vulnerable women much more vulnerable and stuck.

Damning people for kink shaming and normalising (abusive forms of) s&m . Which has lead to the sex games gone wrong defence and women being blamed for their own murders.

And as usual bugger all for the disabled, unless it's a neurotypical actor being cancelled for playing a neurodiverse character.

Wokeness if it is such a word has come to include self ID, which can place women under danger or the fear of danger, such as allowing those born male who have not undergone gender reassignment to be in women's changing rooms. A pervert's charter, or worse.

Very different from being anti-racist, wanting real equality for women, for example.

Because it’s pointless, hypocritical, cancel culturing virtue signalling of the worst kind. Anyone who is woke is usually involved in a shower of shit ineffective activism designed to humiliate and silence others.

@Whyistheteacold The James Baldwin quote (I think my version is a mangled one) is so moving isn’t it. That constant weariness and longing for a time when there’s no need to be woke

jay55

Absolutely.

Along with women are at risk from male violence and need safe spaces unless said man calls himself Geraldine in which case he is at more risk from her.

Woke culture has become an extremist culture- intolerant of any diversity of opinion and is used to bully people into cringing submission.

“Woke” seems no longer to be kind, or to recognise different (sometimes competing) rights outside the party line.

@IamTomHanks

I always thought being woke was a positive thing, but on MN I've often seen it used as an insult, I was curious as to why.

When it was initially used it was a positive thing. It simply meant someone was "woke" to social injustice. Basically, that you understood that institutionalized racism and prejudice exists and you acknowledge that.

It was then co-opted by right wingers to mean virtue signaling, and that was the end of it's positive meaning.

Exactly. Everyone describing the problem with being woke aren't using its original meaning.

Again, it is a bit of a shame because one outcome of this is that people are becoming shamed into remaining quiet about social injustice through fear of being labelled "woke".

It was originally used by African Americans but the term has been hijacked, co-opted and appropriated and basically stolen by the white middle class and now used with such disapproval. You can see how insidious racism is when you look at the transformation of this word as just one small example.

When I think of “woke” it’s not just people trying to recognise human value and do the right thing, it’s people who rigidly adhere to social justice theory, Foucault, and that whole scene.

It’s not enough to respect one another’s humanity through the teachings of a major religion, humanism, traditional western enlightenment thinking etc. It’s seeks to replace these thought structures with social justice theory. And if someone doesn’t bend to that they are pilloried.

It does not seem to matter what a person’s true intentions or meaning is. If it did, everyone would be looking for common ground. Rather, small differences in wording are seized upon and inflated. What is being policed isn’t racism or sexism or homophobia, etc., but people’s thought structures and language.

Very ugly. Makes me think of Calvinistic religious zeal in this country about 400 years ago and all the misery it caused.

Woke is not so much an awareness of injustices but an approach to dealing with them.
It increases tribalism, divisions and resentments.

You can see how insidious racism is when you look at the transformation of this word as just one small example.

Yup. Just look in this thread. People are using it as a slur and away to shame people who have different opinions then them, accusing "woke" people of engaging in things like cancel culture or bullying, but what are you doing when you use it as a slur?

Inviting people to the conversation? No. You're forcing them to shut up for fear of coming across as virtue signaling or not supporting women's rights, or being so open-minded your brains will leak out, or whatever the rightwing buzz phrase of the month is.

Hypocrisy and appropriation at it's finest, but I'm not sure what else to expect from MN anymore.

When the large beared male with 5 kids and a wife,
Went to the pub on Saturday in January drank 10 pints with his mates played darts and they all went for a curry, and the next morning puts a dress on over his jeans and says he is now a woman.
Yes this happened and the wokes think it's ok.

It’s funny as my 10 year old is very naturally woke
He hates cards against humanity
He hated Borat 2 (said it was racist and offensive)
So I agree with you OP

You're kind of proving the point. IamTomHanks
People having a different opinion aren't just repeating right wing talking points, or being deliberately horrible or even being racist.

Its disagreement with an approach and it is allowed.

Everyone describing the problem with being woke aren't using its original meaning.

But it's how it's being used now. Language evolves and adapts and it has been co-opted by people who wish to silence and bully others.

I'm woke you're not. Therefore I'm right and whatever I say is right and valid and you're wrong so I don't need to listen to you, respond to you and can mete out the harshest forms of justice with a clear conscience. In a nutshell. I don't have to justify my position or engage with debate or reflect upon challenges, because I'm woke and that's the right way to be

It's not that people are dismissing consideration of others and equality with eye rolls and accusations of being woke. It's that what is being policed isn’t racism or sexism or homophobia, etc., but people’s thought structures and language.

It doesn't allow for debate, discussion, wider understanding or, as a result, a satisfactory resolution.

These people describe themselves as woke and are proud to be so and have co-opted it's original meaning and intention to mean something far more insidious.

So it's not those who have a problem with it who are the issue but those who 'identify as' being woke.

7days the people using the word "woke" as a slur are most certainly doing all of those things.

It's the purity spiral of wokeness that is the most pernicious thing. You can't ever be woke enough. Even some super woke people have fallen foul of the woke brigade. Good intentions don't matter, if you make the slightest mistake or use a term That two weeks ago was fine but is now evil then you yourself are evil.

There is no concept of forgiveness or giving people the benefit of the doubt

I don't believe that's true, TomHanks.

People can be against racism etc without taking their cue from critical race theory, which sees oppressive dynamics in every interaction. What, even when Mrs Next Door pops in for a cuppa ? (diff colours).It leads to daft scenarios in which gardening is racist or non Mexicans with a burrito stall get cancelled and their livelihoods ruined. It encourages tribalism and division - brilliant, that's worked so well for humanity so far. We had been making great strides in the last 60 years broadly following the MLK colourblind approach, focussing on what unites us. And now CRT theorists make a lit of money getting us to refocus on Us and Them.
CRT probably did have some utility in academia when analysing societal patterns, but does more harm than good when applied to individuals.

Not wanting any part of CRT doesnt make me a right wing* racist. Disagreeing with one social theory out of academia doesn't make you a bad person who should be disregarded.

• nowt wrong with being right wing either, as long as you're moderate about it, same for left wing. RW /Trump voter/ Tory voter shouldn't be an insult or synonymous with stupid/racist/evil otherwise you are calling half the country that. How can that possibly end well?

It's the new Puritanism. Noone is ever pure enough.

Woke for me means insufferable lecturing, attention-seeking, smug hypocrisy. The hypocrisy being the worst bit.

Not wanting any part of CRT doesnt make me a right wing racist. Disagreeing with one social theory out of academia doesn't make you a bad person who should be disregarded.*

How many people on this thread are only calling people who follow CRT "woke".

So far I've seen it used as a slur for people who aren't gender-critical, people who are environmentalists, people who try to use politically correct terminology, etc, basically anyone who is more left leaning then the person using the term.

It's used a lot more flippantly, frequently and aggressively then to just refer to people who believe in critical race theory.

It's the new snowflake.

Eddie Izzard is now a "girl"

I think "That's nice, dear" and mentally file it under Mid Life Crisis. I am not going to start using his preferred pronouns but it doesn't matter because he doesn't know I exist. Apparently this is very unkind of me.

I was just using that as an example otherwise I'd be writing a book!
There's Queer Theory which informs Trans Activism, for example, similar dynamic there. You can oppose discrimination against trans people while acknowledging the importance of sex.

People are giving out that the 'woke' have a certain set of ideological positions and don't brook any disagreement. I'm saying people can have the same aims, against discrimination, but come at them from a different standpoint - but the different standpoint is what makes you the enemy, not that the shared aims makes you a friend. And wow do you know it when you've slipped up, even innocently over something trivial like a newly outdated term or whatever.

To me, that's what makes 'woke' an ideology, a repressive one at that, rather than a straightforward movement for justice.

The tabloids have been using "PC gone mad" for decades as a criticism. I see being PC as a good thing.