New career, migrating, with kids, in my late 40s - I've got this?

[Anycrispsleft]

Am I biting off more than I can chew here? Please tell me I'm not! I live in Germany as a trailing spouse, not working, I've got nearly 9yo twins, and my career options are limited here. I have a science degree and a varied and odd work history, and it would be difficult for me to get into any sort of professional job here, where my language skills are just OK, and it's not really the done thing to change career, nor is it particularly easy to work if you have a family, as childcare is sparse here where we live and school finishes at 1pm!

I am seriously thinking about a move back to my native Glasgow. DH would stay here, as he has a good job that he wouldn't be able to do in Scotland (although he would have the option to work freelance in coming years, when he's closer to retirement maybe - he is 47, I'm 44.) I would go and do the PGDE with a view to becoming a chemistry teacher in Glasgow. We would be in a position to buy a house in a nice area of Glasgow (posher than I grew up in anyway!) and would have the money for a mother's help and a cleaner, so like, it would be quite a nice life. We would aim to be back in Germany/Switzerland during most of the holidays so that the kids would still see a lot of DH. We would aim to do the move in a year and a half when the kids are finished primary school here (aged 10) to minimise the disruption for them. DH and I are quite excited about the prospect of doing this - DH would use the opportunity to move to his native Switzerland, which was out of our reach cost wise when we arrived, but he could afford to buy a flat there now, and both of us are looking forward to being on home turf after many years of travelling around for jobs. We sort of got stranded in Germany when the kids were little - DH got made redundant in the UK and we went where he could get work, I was grateful at the time that we had somewhere nice to settle as the kids were so small, but it is very quiet here and now that the kids are old enough to be mobile it would be a fantastic opportunity for me to move from being a bit of a spare wheel here with few job prospects and little to do, to having a decent professional career, back in my home country where I know how things work, I feel more confident, I can really contribute to society etc (here I'm not even allowed to give blood, as they exclude people who lived in the UK during the BSE outbreak!) I feel the kids - girls - will have a lot better example too, not just me working, but the area of Germany we live in is quite conservative and as I say it is common for mothers not to work. The move wouldn't exclude them from once studying or working in Germany, as we all have Swiss citizenship - there's plenty of places here that are great for working families, just not this corner of the country.

Now that I've typed all that out it feels like an easy decision, but when I wake up at 3 in the morning I think, god, can I do this? Teaching in Scotland is a nicer prospect than England, but still no picnic - I have a few friends who teach, and I'm told to expect a 50 hour week minimum, more to start with. It would just be me, I don't have any family left in Glasgow really, and I wouldn't have that sort of mutual playdate network that I have here now. It would be a huge change for the kids - not only changing home and school, but changing school language, and also they would see less of DH and much less of me. DD2 has ADHD and has till now relied a bit on me being able to help her with schoolwork (although potentially that will be easier, as her English is much better than her German). I'm also painfully aware that job opportunities are better in Germany than they are in Scotland for people although possibly not for women, depending.

Christ that was long. Thank you if you managed to read this far! I just wanted to ask if anyone has done this sort of thing, do you have any advice, does it sound doable? Am I crazy for considering this? Should I just go for it? Any thoughts gratefully received

And intensity is the key.
Open evenings
Parents evenings
Lunch time and after school clubs
Who’s going to watch your dc then? There’s no after school clubs for children over 11.

In the Autumn term we have 2 open evenings, gcse presentation evening and 3 parents evenings. That’s until
9.00 pm. There’s also things called twilights which run until 6.00 pm

You all make excellent points. Let me try and answer a few.

What's the main motivation? Your career? That you and DH don't really enjoy living in Germany and both want to move to your respective home countries? Or that you're concerned about DD2's language skills and the potential impact on her education

The thing with DD2 would be about neutral I think. Wouldn't hurt her, wouldn't necessarily help her. My main motivation is that I don't like living in Germany, and while it would probably have helped if I'd been moving to a good job here, it wouldn't solve all my problems with the place, and I think it would be difficult to do now. I trained as a chemist initially and worked at that for about 10 years, and there are chemist jobs here, but there is a lot of competition for them and lots of insecurity. Many of my chemist friends have been dragging their families across Europe for the last 10 years chasing jobs, and that's the reason I left the industry in the first place. I would consider taking a job here if I could get one in the local chemical industry but I doubt they would take me, with 10 years out of the industry, I think they would easily find better qualified people. Getting in at a lower level would be difficult as they're very sort of rigid in their idea of careers here - I couldn't just go and be a lab monkey, they wouldn't give me the job, they'd tell me to apply for the manager level jobs (and then turn me down). I also just really don't fancy ending up working for someone who was doing like their final year project when I was postdocing in Basel - it's a very, very small world.

If I were to retrain into something technical (say regulatory affairs) my worry is that I would need to move for that first job, and I wouldn't know where. I am really limited to Basel and Zürich here. DH did a similar move in his 30s and ended up in Belgium for 2 years. I don't want to drag the kids to wherever and then back again.
What attracts me to teaching (other than the actual job, which I think I would enjoy, as I liked teaching and training in my chemistry job) is that actually because it is a stressful job with long hours, there's a fair amount of demand for teachers, so you don't have to worry too.much about finding a job, and finding one near where you want to live. The exact opposite of chemistry where you can potentially earn very well but never know what continent they're going to outsource your job to next.

Macbook it is probably more to do with how I see myself than how others see me. I am not happy with what happened to my life, I never wanted to come here, and I don't know how to pass it off to anyone else as anything other than a bit of a disaster. Someone else said you don't need to be working to be an example to your children and I absolutely agree with that in general but I worked so hard to get a decent career and I am so angry that it didn't work out, mostly because when DH got made redundant 5 years ago, he pretty bluntly said he was going back to Switzerland because he could get a job there, and then I was left to decide whether I could manage with 2yo twins and a full time job, in London, with no family support. He's tried to argue every which way that it wasn't like that, but it was, and he feels guilty, but guilt is no use to me, and to answer the question of the other poster - yes, I feel like he does owe me a favour or five, but coming to Scotland will not be that favour. He would struggle to get a job like the one he has now, and the pay would be about half, as the Swiss Franc is so strong. So I understand that. But where he will be generous is with money. I will be able to pay for help, and we will get a place in Glasgow in a really nice area. For me it is really about, how do I leverage my strengths (money, I guess my chemistry degree although it feels like an albatross around my neck sometimes) into a decent career I can be proud of, back in my home country where I want to be, while not making a mess of my daughters' lives?

It all came to a head for me a couple of months ago when I realised that if I stay here now, my kids will probably settle down in the area and maybe once have kids of their own and I will never be able to really get away from this place.

Chemistry teachers are in short supply. Again it is worth looking at the private sector. They can be more willing to take "unqualified" teachers and to give them on the job training. If you are determined to return to Glasgow it might be worth approaching private schools in the area to gauge interest and requirements, including nearby boarding schools. You should ask about the scope for DC to attend, as it would solve the school run problem.

You should also look at in-school training schemes run by local education authorities, often within a consortium of schools. Some of these will be geared to attract older applicants, including mums returning to work. They will be particularly interested in those interested in secondary school STEM, but it is very hard work.

BTW I understand completely about not staying in Germany. I worked there for a couple of years before having children, made friends and was generally settled, but it was not somewhere I would have wanted to stay.

I think you need to move to Glasgow but consider other jobs?? I guess if you do your PGCE and teaching doesn't work out then you look for something else!!

You could take unpaid parental leave to increase time in Germany and perhaps your DH will have to negotiate WFH and unpaid leave to come and visit you in Glasgow?

I am so angry that it didn't work out, mostly because when DH got made redundant 5 years ago, he pretty bluntly said he was going back to Switzerland because he could get a job there, and then I was left to decide whether I could manage with 2yo twins and a full time job, in London, with no family support.

Oh, OP, this is the bit that really stands out from your post for me. He'll follow the job, and what's best for him professionally, and you have the 'choice' of staying put with the children as a lone parent or trailing after him to a series of countries in which your job prospects are minimal? And he's done that on a number of occasions. No wonder you sound so defeated and angry with yourself. You realise you're displacing the anger you could rightfully direct at him onto yourself, don't you?

For argument's sake, if you said you wanted him to accompany you to Scotland and look after the children for a few years/freelance PT while you got set up in your new career, what would he say?

Do you feel that if you required him to choose between you and the girls and his job, that he would choose the job? It just sounds very much as though you're resisting asking him to put you first for once.

Thanks @Needmoresleep, those are good tips.

@RandomMess, I could, although if there is something better than teaching for me I could just prepare for that now. Have you got any ideas? I would potentially be willing to spend longer than a year retraining if there was something else I could find. I am totally open to ideas! I just need something where I can train and work in Glasgow.

@kleinblue I have to say about 90 percent of my anger is directed to him, I'm just annoyed at myself for letting myself get into that situation! I did a hell of a lot to facilitate DH's career, as I'm guessing you can already imagine, including various job moves and supporting him financially through his Masters when he was getting established in his career. I was prepared to do that because we were going to settle in the UK, which was harder for him and easier for me. Once he was established I moved from my lucrative but insecure job in pharma to something not quite so well paid, but very secure, good pension... but only really doable in London... oh look bugger it, I am totally outed on this thread anyway, it was at the Bank of England. I used to do the lending statistics. For a couple of years in the late 00s, if you saw that "the Bank of England has said that mortgage approvals have increased by 5 percent this month", that was me. They are a great employer, they gave me extended mat leave and a part time return to work, and the work was fascinating. But it is a London only job, and me talking my way in there with no formal qualifications was a one time deal. I did apply to the BIS in Basel but they only take economics and stats grads for that role, and anyway, I only scored the job that one time because someone liked my experience profile, but on paper there's nothing that would put me ahead of the masses of younger, more ambitious types who would chew your hand off for an opportunity like that.

Aaaanyway (big breath) that is what I did when I thought I would be staying in London, and then when the kids were 18m, my DH got made redundant. He did look for jobs in London and got a temporary post at a consultancy but nothing that paid near what he was already earning or what he could get in Switzerland.
He would say that at that time he was in a blind panic as to how to pay the mortgage, and it's true he does panic about money, a lot. I think we are rich here. He feels poor. I think he will always feel he is poor until he spends some hard cash on a therapist who might be able to go with him into the details of the failure of his dad's business, how his dad bought status with money, and how his mother silently fretted about all that without actually confronting him, but that's not my immediate problem. I haven't outright asked him to take a leave of absence from his work to come and help with the kids, or to chuck it altogether and come to Scotland, because I know there is more chance of him sailing into Glasgow on the proverbial digestive biscuit than ever doing anything that means he earns less money.

To be honest I don't know if our relationship is going to last very much longer. I was completely disgusted with him when he took the job in Switzerland. He just left me with an absolutely impossible decision. I don't know if I will ever really forgive him for that - I'd also had recurrent miscarriage before the kids, and they were conceived by IVF, and my dad had recently died as well - I had just had the hardest few years of my life and I was just back at work, the kids settled in nursery, I felt like I could see the light at the end of the tunnel... and then it caved in on me.

This is why I see my only future in Glasgow. I want to live in Glasgow. I like it there. The idea of being a teacher in Glasgow is a life that would be so much cooler and more impressive and more interesting than this. But it doesn't need to be teacher, just a something, back on home turf, and then we will see where we are.

My kids are going to be back from school now so I'll need to sign off but I will be back - thank you to all of you who've taken the time to reply, both those who have been enthusiastic and those who are blowing cold cold air onto my plans here, because I know it is all coming from a good place, and it's great to be able to get right into all this and discuss it with folk who want to help.

I haven't outright asked him to take a leave of absence from his work to come and help with the kids, or to chuck it altogether and come to Scotland, because I know there is more chance of him sailing into Glasgow on the proverbial digestive biscuit than ever doing anything that means he earns less money.

I thought you might say that. @Anycrispsleft. And I also wondered whether you were essentially making this move because you'd had enough of your marriage, or were aware you'd reached your limit in terms of self-sacrifice for someone who won't make equivalent ones for you, but while postponing a hard and fast ending. I'm not surprised you can't forgive him for the Swiss move I think that's well-nigh unforgivable. Do you need family money by which I suppose I mean your DH's salary -- to make this move to Scotland work? In which case, I think you should absolutely do it. You know you want to be in Glasgow. You have an idea for initial retraining and in-demand work, but are open to other possibilities if that doesn't suit you. Your daughters will benefit, or at least not be actively disadvantaged by the timing. Go for it. Prioritise yourself.

You sound great, by the way. Best wishes with it all.

(Also, Switzerland is the dullest place I have ever lived, to an almost sinister extent. It made me feel like cutting my own head off on a daily basis.)

There is a substantial financial sector in Glasgow. You might research the largest employers, and then phone their HR departments and ask how they recruit. Many will use agencies, so you know to approach them or where to look for adverts.

I too left a part of the public sector job after having children, so found myself looking for a new job/career in my 40s. I sort of slid into a generalist local authority job and continued from there. In retrospect I should have retrained as a teacher, as DH and I spent weekends during school holidays criss-crossing the country taking DC to different sports camps, science camps, Grandparents etc. I could not have done it on my own, and those holidays would have been great and would have saved lots of money.

Is it worth looking for research posts at the uni?

Or business maths/stats at an FE college?

To be honest I don't know if our relationship is going to last very much longer.

See, now you've explained this - and why - your decision makes so much more sense! Fuck it, then. Move home.

Please avoid the natural tendency to romanticise things. Terraced houses are tiny (I’ve lived in loads), with room sizes around 12’ x 12’. They’re often draughty too. You’ll not have many options to make new friends via your DC if they’re going straight into secondary, as there’s no school run and the kids don’t want you near them within sight of their friends. 😂 There’s no after-school care in most secondary schools either (certainly in England, maybe Scotland is better). And ready meals are bad for you! Loads of salt and sugar unless you pay a fortune for the expensive M&S healthy ones; you won’t want your DC to eat them.

ah come on...terraces come in all sizes, but OP clearly has plenty of money, she can get any house. There are loads of ways to make friends that have nothing to do with children, and there are plenty of healthy enough ready meals and shortcuts that are hard to find in Germany.

OP shouldn't romantacise, but relentless negativity doesn't help either.

@KleinBlue I might print off your response and bloody frame it! Yes, that all is exactly how I feel about the whole thing, including your feelings about Switzerland.

@Needmoresleep I will have a look into finance in Glasgow, that's a good idea. Although the school holidays are very attractive I must say. I can see me motoring through the terms and then, hopefully, being able to decompress a bit with the kids in the holidays.

@MacbookHo I did that classic Mumsnet move of "please give me a read on whether this sounds plausible, never mind why" and Mumsnet always goes "yes but why" and then comes the massive dripfeed that makes it all make sense. I just need some reassurance that I can do it, really!

I came on say that you shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of teaching as a career or carrying the mental load of being a parent solo.

But having read your update re your relationship I would say that moving home makes very good sense.

@teateateateateamoretea

OP shouldn't romantacise, but relentless negativity doesn't help either.

True! Good point. I made a big move a few years ago, it didn’t go well, and I think I let my bitterness spill over! 😆

OP, ignore my misery-post from earlier.

Given your circumstances, moving home sounds like the best plan. Teaching may be too much though, especially as your dd has adhd. ADHD often gets worse around puberty for girls especially so you may find she needs a lot more help at home than she does now in regards to schedules, homework, revision for exams, timekeeping etc. Which is all fine if you were in a 'normal' job with regular working hours as you would still be physically around, but with teaching you would be unlikely to have the time to focus on her additional needs. There are many other interesting jobs though, if its particularly education that appeals then perhaps college age/ adult education or even being a TA in a primary school in the interim.

Is teaching your heart’s desire? Just wondering if there was any other science jobs around that might be less stressful than teaching?
Working out of Grangemouth, for example, which has a big petro chemical work base.

You sound lovely op and you are really thinking things through.
I too think what your dh did was pretty unforgiveable . I think you can only get over that one if he does something similar for you too.

When I read your first post, I was screaming don’t do it, but reading your other replies I think life is just too short to make the huge sacrifices you are making.

Basically you are very unhappy and if you close those feelingsdown and ‘try to just get on with it, they will rear up again and again and again and when the twins have fled the coop you’ll ending up looking at someone you hate.

You have a plan and it could work. It could breathe new life into your marriage or it could signal the end .
It depends how much you both want it to work.
If one of you doesn’t..it will drag on until it comes to a head and you may be in a worse position than you are now career wise.

I did balk at the idea of you being a teacher but then I was thinking of young children and maybe you would be suited to university teaching with your degree.

There might be openings in medical lecturing. My son is training to be a theatre nurse presently. He did his access to nursing last year and has started at uni this year and working in theatre and sometimes at the uni..maybe there’s something there that might give you more flexibility around child care.

Whatever you do, good luck and if hubby isn’t on board then it might be time to call a halt.

I dont know about teaching. I do get where you are coming from giving up a scientific job and following husbands job.

Can you teach in Scotland on an English PGCE? Both Nottingham and Sunderland (and so maybe so where in Scotland?) do a PGCE at a distance course. Would one of the international schools raise you on to do that? Or are the language issues still there? My understanding is that first year is hectic, and trying to do that, plus parent solo in a new (all be it somewhere you know) country, and getting the kids settled will be no mean feat.
I get the feeling you actually are looking for a way out of your marriage, and see teaching as a possible route, rather than teaching being what you want to do. If that's the case, I'd think very carefully.

There are some weird and wonderful jobs at universities other than lecturing (is that an option?) where having experience as well as a degree in the relevant field. We have lots of research projects dealing with businesses about materials development and innovation etc etc.

Thanks for your replies, guys!

I will follow up all your job suggestions. I really would like something where there is demand and where you can do it anywhere. @dowser I wondered about something medical but everything I've heard about nursing suggests the hours would be as bad as teaching, if not worse! But I know there are a lot of adjacent areas that you can get into from nursing, so that is a definite lead for me. The thread today has also opened up the idea that perhaps if I have to study for more than a year, that is doable, as long as there's a payoff in terms of job security and conditions at the end of the day.

@MacbookHo no worries, I appreciate the time everyone is taking to give me advice, whether it's what I want to hear or not!

@CormoranStrike I used to work in Grangemouth! I suppose I could fire off an application. I still have a couple of contacts there, although I don't know if I could just walk back in after 10 years away. They can only say no though!

@DinosaurOfFire I will certainly look at adult education - perhaps naively, I was hoping that secondary teaching might allow me to still support DD in that stuff day to day, as I'd be able to be in the house earlier, even though I'd have to go on working after the kids are in bed. But I mean this is the whole question. It would be a no-brainer if it weren't for the hours.

@inthelonggrass the international schools here don't take on students or pre-probation teachers, you need to have done your probation already.
I don't see teaching as a route out of my marriage but I definitely do see it as a route back into a professional career, and one with job security, rather than something I have a burning desire to do. But I didn't have a burning desire to be a chemist either! I just want a job that won't go "poof" in three years' time and leave us needing to relocate again.

Stats are finding their way into just about every area, just look at all the Covid stuff, so there is a demand for people who could teach at FE level or presumably support researchers.

(DS studied econometrics, which is essentially complicated financial maths and statistics, and was offered a bunch of teaching and research opportunities, essentially from the end of his second year UG onwards.)

Have you thought of applying to the Civil Service or Scottish Government in the area you worked in previously?

When my children were young and I was deciding what to do, my professional body was offering a hour's free careers advice consultancy. I decided to use it to get my CV written. I don't know if it is a female thing, but the main value was to have an outsider give me his take on my achievements, and to almost give me permission to be (almost) boastful. It gave me a huge confidence boost so I paid for a further hour to discuss possible careers and job search.

I just read your big long post. Do it.

But research your options first!