Parent help please?? Nursery diagnosing DD

[SleepDeprived2018]

I don’t know if anyone has been in this postion and has any advice or suggestions ? I will try not to drip feed. My DD is two she attends nursery 3.5 days a week. She doesn’t talk – she does make noises babbles . She started her current nursery in the summer as her previous nursery closed down due to covid. She has started biting other children and staff – she does this multiple times a day and they have now told me that it has become a really big issue and that they think she has ‘SEN issues’ . She doesn’t bite at home – she has in the past but this is multiple times daily at nursery. I asked why they think this means SEN could it not be that she is frustrated that she cant yet communicate as she isn’t speaking - they feel it is more than this. I have taken her to audiology she passed. We are waiting for speech and language to asses her at nursery . I called to speak to nursery to ask for more info and anything I could do to help . I asked what she was like in nursery if there was any pattern to her behaviour does she have any friends or inteact much with children – they said no she avoids children and said this isn’t normal at her age. They said she only enjoys sensory play and will not partake in anything else (water play,playdough,silk scarfs etc) at home she likes to play with dolls and trains etc but they said no she never does this in nursery.
She said the biting is becoming so much of an issue they may have to ask her to leave the nursery .
I don’t know what to do . im out of my mind with stress – nursery are going to refer her to paediatrics via two year check.
Can anyone tell me of any kind of similar experiences they have had??
The nursery manager said to me on Monday ‘I have a lot of experience of SEN so I know whats happening here!’ I was shocked as shes obviously not qualified to say this – I asked ‘ are you saying you think dd has SEN ?’ she said ‘I am yes’ I said sorry so you are saying she has SEN? She said yes – my hsband was 3m away by the car so he came over I said can you repeat that for my husband please so you just said you believe DD has SEN? She said no I never said that! Husband heard her say this 3 times so strange that she then denied it - I think she knew that was beyond her scope. I totally understand expressing concerns and communicating but I feel she did over step the mark there.

What can I do to help my DD?

There may be many reasons why your child is acting in this way. It’s right that you and the nursery explore like this with the help and support of experts, but speaking as the parent of an autistic child, the fact that you do not see this behaviour at home means nothing: the stresses, anxieties and sensory issues will be entirely different at home than at school. Just suppose for example that your child has auditory sensitivity - the noise of a nursery full of young children, crying, laughing or even just talking all at once, using loud toys, musical instruments etc etc is totally different to being at home. Embrace the support offered - whatever the issue it will be easier to resolve if you are all working together, and the earlier the support is offered, the better (and I say that as a parent who could see that my child had difficulties years before nursery and school did).

THATbasicSNOWFLAKEso at the minute she doesnt have a keyworker. Basically - the old manager left very suddenly about 8 wks ago - and since the staff have all left one by one. Its now a few apprentices - the new manager - and the lady i spoke to today i think she is the SENDCO - she was very lovely and said we could sit down to chat but there wasnt much more to say untill any refferals had gone through. X

This rings alarm bells for me.

If all the staff are leaving there is clearly an issue, probably to do with owner or manager.

How long has your dd had no key worker?

As i say a SALT can take a long time, months.

The nursery should be planning for each childs needs and development, so yes there is things that can be said before the refferal comes through. Sounds to me as though your dd should be working on her speech and psed, she may benefit from some small group work.

Are there any staff within the room who have been consistently there since she started?

hmm maybe the nursey isn't on top of its game atm due to staff issues and just have a few gossipy staffers having a cup of tea and giving random 'diagnoses'without thinking it through? I got a report about ds from his nursery casually saying he was "behind for his age" and generally quite negative about him. I discussed it with the manager and turned out she hadn't read it and apologised fully. I think the woman who wrote it just wasn't very...clever...and hadn't realised the full impact of her words.

Take any help, they did not go about it right but the sooner you get referred the better - She may just be delayed or she could have SEN and that means the Nursery will be able to access extra funding so she gets extra help.
I was fobbed off by HV as my DD was 5 weeks premature and I was told that she would catch up by age 3- she didn't and we ended up going to our GP and she referred us to community paediatrics and from then on we got tests and answers.
Our DD has various problems - but if you saw her, you would not know she has the problems she has, ASD, speech delay, global development delay .and we are awaiting results of some other tests.
Do not hold out much hope for Speech therapy, unless you can afford private, they are so overworked my DD was getting one appt every four months and they have since dropped her as we moved her to a Special school this year. I know this is my experience and yours may be, hopefully, better.
I cannot give advice on what to do about the biting as I don't have experience, but from reading what you have put I would say she is having sensory overload or is frustrated with not being able to say what she wants, My DD does not like lots of noise and can get a bit overwhelmed.
Speak to the SENDCo, and keep speaking to them, I would also ask your GP to refer to Paediatrics.

Just to say , it doesnt neccessarily mean she has SEN issues , I worked in a nursery years ago and we had one or two children that did this and grew out of it and were perfectly normal . There are a lot of two year olds that don't play with other children and some are just happy with familiar toys until they feel settled .
I think she would be better with a childminder or somewhere else as that setting doesn't seem right for her .

I don't think the nursery sounds very good at all and your daughter definitely doesn't sound happy there. I'd consider a childminder if I were you (and I am normally evangelical about the benefit of nurseries but they aren't right for every child)

OO, while the nursery worker went about it the wrong way, she is not diagnosing your child, she is saying that in her experience your child is showing some behaviours which are causing concern.

When you work with kids every day, these things do stand out. You might be able to make an educated guess at what it is, but that is for the professionals, but you do know something is wrong.

There sound like a few things are cause for concern here, and your dds behaviour may be related to the lack of structure and careat nursery, or related to her own needs, but either way, she is not happy there.

She is only 2. The natural environment for a 2 year old is in a domestiv setting surrounded by familiar people, a few adults, knwon well. Very few nurseries are able to provide this. Some 2 year old take this in their stride, some don't. Your dd doesn't even have a key worker at the moment!

She behaves differently because a as an environment it is very different. Biting is a form of communication. She can;t speak, (this is also a cause for concern if she has no noises/babbling pre-words at all) so she expresses need and frustration by biting the person in her way.

I would not wait for SALT. It may take ages, and then may not give you as much as you need.
I would also try and teach her some simple signs to support her communication, and look up all the pre speech activities to assess where her communication is (things like does she understand simple instructions, does she show you things, does she point etc)

I agree with others that the nursery manager doesn't sound to be doing anything out of line. I know people have said that her mentioning SEN is par for the course; I also think saying 'she's been on a right rampage' is probably an attempt to keep things light. Our nursery would say stuff like that and IMO it is nicer than getting a solemn face and a very formal 'today I am have to report that your DD bit two children,' which makes it sound like a bigger deal than it needs to be.

FWIW my DD wasn't speaking beyond the odd word at two; I was quite worried about her language and asked nursery to keep an eye, and they were great and very thorough. DD is three now and won't shut up (though her speech is still not the clearest). And honestly, it is actually really helpful to have another pair of expert eyes on your child! I should think a lot of people do ask the nursery manner if their child is doing normal things, developmentally, so she will be used to saying yes or no or giving a sense of whether there's a problem.

I get that to you, it feels frightening and it sounds as if you feel a bit attacked. But to her it'll be something she's had to discuss with parents dozens of times so it probably just feels very routine.

and by the way, sharing and co-operative play etc developmentally begins at 3. (and note, begins, not fully developed)

before that children may play alongside each other, but not really 'together' so I wouldn't worry about that per se, but most children are curious about and interested in other children, so lack of any interaction may be what she is flagging up

I know it's hard to hear your child has Sen but the best thing you can do for your child is be fully onboard. It's ok to be afraid or angry or hurt but not in denial

It sounds like nursery haven't dealt with it very professionally, but there are some definite spectrum/autism indicators mentioned in your first post.

Definitely listen to everything they say and ask for all the help you can get.

@SleepDeprived2018 I'm in Kingston area, the whole assessment cost £200. That was a few years ago so prices may have gone up!

I think even if the nursery manager may have over stepped the mark, their intentions is in good faith.

My ds was referred to paed at 2 year check up. It was inconclusive so he never got diagnosis, but he was offered lots of help through hospital as well as from his nursery. It made so much difference having had lots of intervention at nursery age, his transition to school was very smooth.

They have not diagnosed her. They are saying they fear they cannot meet her needs, and have a duty to safeguard other children and staff, and the reasons for her behaviour including speech and language delay should be explored and are being proactive to start the process. It is always upsetting to hear negative feedback but in this case I suspect you already concerned yourself and this confirms your instincts may be right. In the end your dd is still herself whatever the outcome.

Hi OP. My son is a similar age to your DD and although he is not presenting in the same way we are concerned that he may have some SEND and we are beginning to access support. He goes to a childminder and a simply wonderful pre-school and I just wanted to give you a sense of what it should look like when a setting properly supports a child.

I have had a sit-down meeting with his key worker and the SENCO to talk them through his history and previous interventions. He has had two IEPs at the setting to set and evaluate targets and after an application from them (with our consent) he has been observed by a member of the early years assessment team and will have an inclusion support practitioner going into the setting after Christmas to help the staff to set up strategies to support him. They are putting together an application for funding to the LA and this is also the first step towards an EHCP application if this is appropriate in the future. Separately, we are awaiting referrals to SALT and audiology which we requested via the HV at his 2-year check.

It does not sound to me like your child's nursery are able to support her needs.

It sounds like a combination of the way the nursery manager said your daughter has SEN and an understandable denial we have our parents when we hear our child isn’t fitting with what’s expected. From what you’ve written, your daughter does have SEN but it might not be something that can’t be managed and coped with.

Often children do act differently at home to nursery but it’s up to the staff there to look for concerns and it’s great a referral has already been made because some children and parents struggle so much for them.

I would just try to take on board everything that is said and keep an open mind. Remember the manager may not be qualified to formally diagnose SEN but she is likely to have spent many years or decades working with your child’s age group and knows what to expect.

The nursery haven’t diagnosed anything-the manager said she thinks your child has special needs; from what you’ve said, that sounds very likely.

You seem far bothered that someone has overstepped the mark (they haven’t) than anything else.

Focus on your child and their needs. Ask for a meeting with relevant staff, to add her to their SEN register and that you want to be fully involved in the graduated approach to meet her needs. Ask what suggestions for adjustments, interventions and provision they have available to put in place to support her.