Hypothetical question elderly foreign nationals overstaying

[Fressia123]

DP and I were talking about my DM and how's she's completely alone and what can be done about it. There used to be a visa that would let her stay here with us until the day she passed but now they've become extremely hard to get (between 100 and 50 get approved each year). So the only options are to either move with her (all as a family) or for her to become an overstayer. He's adamant were likely to get a fine and even go to jail as we're "facilitating" her stay. I know that's the case for employers and landlords but we wouldn't be either of them. (BTW we're likely to move as that's always been the plan but it was interesting to discuss).

We actually don't need a visa to travel here. We get a stamp on our passports without having to previously apply for clearance. I would keep my flat, so in any case she wouldn't be homeless.

I'll try every single legal route first, but I simply don't want my mother to die alone.

We actually don't need a visa to travel here. We get a stamp on our passports without having to previously apply for clearance. I would keep my flat, so in any case she wouldn't be homeless. She’ll still have to get through immigration at the airport.

I'll try every single legal route first, but I simply don't want my mother to die alone. And I do get that, honestly I do. But the immigration system is simply not set up to take account of things like that. You need to be fully aware of all the potential consequences of what you’re considering. And, let’s be realistic here, all these consequences won’t be for you to face. They’ll be for your mum to cope with. On her own.

@Fressia123

We actually don't need a visa to travel here. We get a stamp on our passports without having to previously apply for clearance. I would keep my flat, so in any case she wouldn't be homeless.

I'll try every single legal route first, but I simply don't want my mother to die alone.

That stamp on your passport is a standard visitor visa for 6mos. If she overstays or it can be proven she arrived with intent to overstay/settle, she violates U.K. immigration law and one part of U.K. immigration law is that anyone who has broken immigration law automatically becomes ineligible for any future U.K. visa at all. You would eliminate all chance of her dependent visa appeal being approved.

I’d question the article 8 appeal advice because isn’t that from an EU human rights law which I presume will no longer be in effect come 2021 as Brexit will be complete?

“The EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 states that the Charter (EHCR) is not part of domestic law on or after exit day”

Chapter 8 right to family life is in the EHCR.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/how-might-brexit-affect-human-rights-in-the-uk/

You're absolutely correct about the article 8 being under EU law. I'm hoping something similar will exist post Brexit

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]“The EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018 states that the Charter (EHCR) is not part of domestic law on or after exit day”

Chapter 8 right to family life is in the EHCR.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/how-might-brexit-affect-human-rights-in-the-uk/[/quote]
That doesn't remove the UK from the treaty. Just means we need to revert to taking cases to Strasbourg directly, assuming the UK intends to honour the treaty. If the UK chooses not to, then individually you are fucked.

Older posters might remember the pre-1998 landscape. Although I'm guessing the current government is hoping not many.

I hope so too for your and your mothers sake. I can sympathise with you as my elderly father lives in another country from me. One I doubt I could get a long term visa to and he refuses to come here (too cold he says). He is also alone there. I hope you find a legal solution. Keep researching immigration solicitors.

I think you need to consider very carefully before bringing her here permanently without going through the proper channels. . Suppose down the line you are unable to care for her. Then she is found to be here illegally. What then.

Financially or physically?

Is there any way you can set up long term care for your mother in her home country and then spend periods of time with her there? Share the responsibility of visiting with your sister?

I do feel very sorry for your family. It’s a horrible situation to be in. It is also so risky at the moment with Brexit. The whole of the immigration system is changing and we just don’t know what it will look like in 1/3/5 years time. The government don’t seem committed to human rights, so a human rights claim just might not be available to you.

Also, enforcement of the illegal immigrants may become harsher (the tories are hardly known for their compassion) Your elderly mother, if she overstays, may find herself in a detention centre (utterly unthinkable for a elderly person) but I also didn’t think they would separate children from their parents but this happened in the US (well reported and not surprising under Trump)

Agree with others. Think long and hard about this. Immigration are brutal. There’s this misconception that the UK its so easy to get to/stay in, but if she overstays they will do everything in their power to deport her. As others have said, they can make her life miserable having to sign on at an immigration centre. Having no real rights. That’s before you get into if she has any health problems. Do you want to put her through that?

Switzerland is so close. I have relatives there and I sometimes go for the day! Flying in early morning and out in the evening. It’s not even that expensive. Not compared to all the costs you’re considering taking on. Have you any idea how much immigration lawyers, appeal fees etc cost? Thousands upon thousands. And I’m sorry but claim asylum from switzerland? That’s absolutely ludicrous.

Your plan isn’t going to work and will be very expensive and result in a huge amount of stress for you and your mum. You clearly are ok financially to be considering all this so redirect that into a plan that will work. I once lived half in Germany, half here. I’d fly here Monday morning, work till Thursday pm, fly back to Germany that evening. Each and every week. Find a way to do regular visits.

We could but I doubt we'd be able to spend long period of time, work, children etc... My sister is in the type of visa where she's only able to be out of the country for short periods of time (or they can't add up to a certain amount). Obviously that doesn't last forever but I don't know the Swiss immigration system. In the end it's not about the care of lack of care. Is that eventually towards the end of her days she won't be able to see much of any of her family. (She hasn't seen me in 13 months but that thanks to Covid) but I think that was the eye opener that showed us how horrible it will be that one day either of us will take a plan to never see each other again.

The difference is (albeit I don't know it it really matters in the end) is that I'm a British citizen and my sister is on a spouse visa.

Sounds really tough OP. I haven't seen my mum since March due to covid.

Have you thought of a "neutral" country? Ireland would fit both EU and Brit citizenship, plus is overall English-speaking. It's still a massive upheaval, but might make it doable. It's expensive though!

Or, have her to stay on a longterm visitor visa, then just have a whole load of flights booked every 2/3/4 weeks when she's back in Spain. Flights will be a lot cheaper and less disruptive than all of you moving country, i would imagine.

If her heart issues prevent air travel, there's a ferry from N Spain. Would only have to be done 2 x per year.

It would obvs be a lot of your time, but it sounds as though that you would like to ve able to do that?

But neither of us has claim to EI citizenship! (She lives in Mexico I think that's where the confusion with Spain comes from).

*EU citizenship

I do sympathise, but agree with everyone else that it just isn't going to work.

One point I noticed is that you mentioned her being on medication. How would you get new supplies? I doubt a pharmacy here would fill a prescription from a doctor in Mexico, and she won't be able to use a GP. What if she develops a new condition? Emergency treatment is just that - immediate emergency. It won't cover cancer or a hip replacement. I would wonder if she could even get private care if she was here illegally.

If you try it, and she gets deported - traumatising enough in itself, she is unlikely to be allowed in again as a visitor, ever. And from what I understand, that could be the result of a failed, perfectly legal application for a visa for an elderly relative.

Well yes but at least we tried. That's how we both see it (DM and I)

Practically speaking, you could arrange with your sister for your DM to split her time between UK, Switzerland and Mexico. When in Mexico you or your sister visits her. 2 months here, a month in Mexico, 2 months Switzerland, one in Mexico, 2 in UK... etc. You pay for her to fly first or business class when she’s more infirm, which would still be cheaper than legal fees, care costs, medical costs, etc. She doesn’t get lonely, you’re not scared that every time she leaves it’ll be the “final goodbye”.

One day, you will say goodbye to your DM for the last time. It happens to everyone (death). Being in the same house or the same continent does not protect you from that.

I’m sorry your mother is lonely. I get that it’s hard, I really honestly do. Particularly this year, it’s make anyone feel a long long way from family. But. A lot of elderly people in the UK are also lonely/can’t move nearer family due to disparity in property prices, or there family are overseas, etc etc. This is a situation people face. I know I sound cruel, but ageing and death are cruel.

The whole point of this hypothetical scenario is when she won't be able to travel anymore. Or maybe if we knew "the end was near".

If she gets cancer she's said she'd always prefer to be euthanised (it's legal over there) after seeing how much my uncle suffered.

But she won't be there, will she?

Well that I wouldn't know. She's super able at the moment. I think if she were to get cancer tomorrow she'd stay there and and choose the date for when everyone can be there for her.

These scenarios are more when she can't drive/ have an independent life. Ultimately I know she'd become some sort of "prisoner".

The point people are making about being illegally here is that she would be a prisoner here too. And not just in the sense of her personal capacity but in all aspects of civic life we easily take for granted when we have the legal right to reside. Being a person with legal residence in the UK, and Europe in general, is an extremely hard life. She might be lucky enough to have you to take care and pay for her, but some things you won't be able to provide, including protection from literally being imprisoned and deported. I agree it is hugely unfair and a gross violation of human rights, but that is the system we live in and from experience I'd say you have to be very sure of what you're doing if you try to circumvene it.

*without legal residence