Hypothetical question elderly foreign nationals overstaying

[Fressia123]

DP and I were talking about my DM and how's she's completely alone and what can be done about it. There used to be a visa that would let her stay here with us until the day she passed but now they've become extremely hard to get (between 100 and 50 get approved each year). So the only options are to either move with her (all as a family) or for her to become an overstayer. He's adamant were likely to get a fine and even go to jail as we're "facilitating" her stay. I know that's the case for employers and landlords but we wouldn't be either of them. (BTW we're likely to move as that's always been the plan but it was interesting to discuss).

NHS is always accessible if it's an emergency.

yes, but with 'no recourse to public funds' she could get an invoice.
when a visiting relative broke a leg the international office of the hospital was by their bedside before they got wheeled to the ward.

She's always been able to get travel medical insurance, but obviously if she's here semipermanently I'm sure it would be against the policy.

macabre question - what if your mum needs full time care/nursing care?
are you able to do that and privately fund the equipment?

I guess I wouldn't have a choice, would I? It's not like I/she wouldn't have to pay for it in our home country.

If she comes here and overstays, when she gets caught she will presumably be deported and will never be allowed back again. You can’t want that.

Surely it would be better to continue letting her come for the duration of the six month visa and return home? Perhaps with a family member for a month or two if jobs/funds would allow?

Is it just your family that’s left, are their any more if her children still alive, even if in other foreign countries to your own? If there were then that could mean more regular visits to her if their jobs/funds would allow?

Many must be in the same position.

And while the nhs used to fund treatment for all, I would assume that this will be tightened up in future after Brexit ans the impact of covid debt.

So invoices will need paid for A&E visits or whatever, so you can’t rely on that. Imagine how awful it would be to know she needs x amount of treatment costing say £3k here, but at home it would only be £500 for the same treatment. It would have been easier to find the money to fund her treatment in her home country.

An awful situation for all concerned. Especially if it’s cancer or something and you just can’t find the £20k or something to pay for it. But if she was at her home it would be much more affordable?

I hope you get something sorted, what a nightmare.

It's just me and my sister but she lives in Switzerland. We think it will come to a point when she won't be able to travel at all (she suffer from all sorts of chronic heart problems).

She doesn't need to see a doctor that regularly because she's been taking the same meds for years and years. Slot of the testing can be done at home too.

Bulls would be cheaper at home, but in case of long treatment I wouldn't be able to leave everything behind to be with her. If she has an accident and only has a couple of days to live (that happened to both my grandma's) then I don't think I would be able to see her alive again.

Money realistically isn't the main issue. Is that we wouldn't be able to change our lives completely to be with her during her last years on this earth.

What’s both of your jobs Coukd your mum get a visa for six months with her here, six months with your sister in Switzerland? How long would she need to return to her home country for per year? She could go back there for a month, two weeks with each of you over there if you could get off work, and then go abroad again? How long does she have to be ‘at home’ for per year? Not sure how it all works!

@Allington

Such a difficult situation. Visitor visas are 6 months, aren't they? Would it work if she visited for several months at a time, then home for a few weeks, then another visitors visa?

This is not allowed and would result in the revocation of the visa

In theory yes she could spend 6 months here 6 in Switzerland but I'm sure the HO would pick up said pattern.

I'm very much employable but my DP only speaks English and lacks qualifications. Short from opening a business I don't think he'd have many more options

Somebody has told me that apparently a good path to achieve this is to almost claim asylum (using this as a loose term). If anyone ever wonders why genuine asylum seekers often get accused of being nothing more than economic migrants or medical tourists then, boom, here’s your answer.

I am stunned that any reasonable, decent person would ever consider doing this. Not only undermining a system that’s supposed to be there to protect vulnerable people, but forcing your mum to tell dreadful lies about things that haven’t actually happened to her. WTF are you thinking?! Asylum is not a ‘loose term’. In order to get asylum, you have to be persecuted in your country due to your race, nationality, religion, political beliefs or membership of a particular social group. You have to show that the authorities are unable to protect you in your country and that you couldn’t just move to another area of your home country. So in order to do that, your elderly DM would have to fabricate a story about why she couldn’t return to her country, and then be interviewed about it for several hours by a Home Office official, who won’t need to be a brain surgeon to realise that she’s got no ties in her country and has come over on a visa to stay with the only family she has who could care for her. So while this is happening, you’re busy selling her home and buying yourself a bigger house. So what happens if/when she gets refused asylum and has to go back to her home country?

Did you previously live in the same country as your mum? If so, did you leave her there knowing that she was on her own? Did you not think about what would happen as she got older? Who would care for her when she needed help? And what happens when she needs more than a prescription? When scans, hospital stays etc are required and she’s not entitled to NHS treatment? Do you have the thousands of pounds set by to pay her medical bills? Because if she has been refused asylum or has no other lawful leave, she’ll be liable. What will your plan be then? Are you planning on lying to the NHS too?

I am stunned that any reasonable, decent person would ever consider doing this

I think by definition someone considering that is neither reasonable, nor decent.

I never said I would lie :/ I said the "loose term" because that's what we call it in Spanish. The real path is to appeal because she has nobody else to look after her no family nor friends, she'd basically die alone (or our family would have to be separated for some time including small children). I have no leg to stand on to day she is being persecuted. It would just to appeal to the right of a family life.

When I moved to the UK or was a lot easier to bring your parents. The ruled changed one year before I was granted citizenship.

The hypothetical idea is that she'd never return home. @LittleOverwhelmed she has nothing to return to.

I never said I would lie :/ I said the "loose term" because that's what we call it in Spanish. The real path is to appeal because she has nobody else to look after her no family nor friends, she'd basically die alone (or our family would have to be separated for some time including small children). I have no leg to stand on to day she is being persecuted. It would just to appeal to the right of a family life.

The very definition of asylum is escaping from persecution, which you confirmed you know isn’t happening, so yeah, by even mentioning asylum, you insinuated that you’d be lying. And she can’t appeal unless there is a decision for her to appeal against and I’m happy to be corrected but I’m fairly sure ‘family life’ isn’t a visa category. So you either sponsor her visit visa knowing that you’re all lying because she has no intention of returning home after her visitor’s leave has expired, or she makes the application for the relevant dependant’s visa in her home country and appeals from there if it’s refused.

I don’t think you’ve got a clue about what you’re proposing to put her through. All to make your life easier.

I have to agree with Sn0tnose

You say you would care for your DM but let me tell you about a family friend. She cared for her DH when he got dementia. It developed quickly and he soon became doubly incontinent. She rarely slept, he was awake half the night and she was scared to leave him unattended, he didn't recognise her and eventually was put in a home.

A nursing home costs a minimum of £35-45,000 per year. All savings have to be spent and in some cases people sign a deferred payment agreement which means any fees still owing will be paid from the sale of their house when the remaining spouse dies.

If this should happen to your DM, since she has paid zero tax or NI, I think it unlikely that local authorities would pay for her in advance.

Think long and hard, OP.

According to one lawyer (which I just contacted) . He said that yes I apply for a dependent visa (which ultimately be rejected as most of them do). She travels here and then we appeal from here claiming article 8 - "Right to a Family Life".

It's not just my life easier it's for my child to not be separated from either me or his dad.

A proper (as in adequate) are about £2k per month plus medical/ prescription it ain't cheap.

When my uncle has cancer he needed a nurse and that was £1500 and she wasn't there 24/7

Have a look at the guidance
www.gov.uk/government/publications/family-life-as-a-partner-or-parent-private-life-and-exceptional-circumstance

Please think this through very carefully, just for the sake of your mum. The ethics of trying to work around the (inhumane) immigration system is one thing, but not having recourse to public funds is a very difficult situation to be in. I know of someone who had to die a slow and scary death of cancer because she wasn't allowed medical care, and many other people who forewent routine care like dental check-in or prescription medication they needed because of their immigration status. Your mum may not have been asked for her papers until now, but the hostile environment is genuinely that and public services entry points are obvious places where the gates will come down harsh sooner or later. Speaking as someone from a European country where these measures have been in place for years now, I think you really need to think through all of the consequences.

Here is some guidance
immigrationbarrister.co.uk/a-guide-to-adult-dependant-relative-visas

Doesn’t sound like you’d get near the tests TBH

According to one lawyer (which I just contacted) . He said that yes I apply for a dependent visa (which ultimately be rejected as most of them do). She travels here and then we appeal from here claiming article 8 - "Right to a Family Life".

So, assuming she even gets a visit visa after having been refused a dependant’s visa (because if she’s from a country where people need a visa to travel here, she won’t be going anywhere until a visa has actually been issued), you’re confirming that you’re quite willing to lie to immigration as her sponsor, knowing that she’s got no intention of getting on the plane home?

Did your immigration solicitor mention that there’s zero guarantee that an appeal will be successful? Are you going to explain to your elderly mum why she has to go and sign on at a reporting centre? Or that, at any time, she can be removed and returned to a country where she’s got nowhere to live because you’ve sold her house to buy a bigger one here? Or why she can’t have the scan or hospital stay she needs because you haven’t got the thousands of pounds to pay for it and she’s not entitled to NHS treatment because you tried to circumvent the system and now she’s got no status here?

I know I’m sounding harsh and that you’re trying to make the best choices you can for your mum and your child, but I think you’re under the impression that you just need to tell a few lies, it will all go to appeal and everything will be fine and she’ll get status here. It just doesn’t work like that. You’re sounding so irresponsible.