Why is my bread so shite?

[Pumperthepumper]

I used to make bread all the time but got out of the habit and now every time I do it’s invariably terrible. The dough does this weird thing where it gets stickier and stickier as I knead it, it never goes smooth or silky. I’ve tried to do it in the mixer but then it just goes really solid. How can I produce a lovely, golden, round loaf instead of a lump of pale sadness?

Boule not boyle!

Yeast is new because I was using old stuff over lockdown and I thought it was that. I was using a mixer with a dough hook but it was really tough and tight, so today I did it by hand - still shite!

I wonder if you are using a very low or non gluten flour? Gluten is a protein that when you knead builds a sort of framework or scaffolding for the bread to rise as the yeast produces CO2.

You could try a hard wheat or bread flour.

It also could be the yeast as others have said. I use an instant yeast (or sourdough) and it goes straight in.

@LoveFall

I wonder if you are using a very low or non gluten flour? Gluten is a protein that when you knead builds a sort of framework or scaffolding for the bread to rise as the yeast produces CO2.

You could try a hard wheat or bread flour.

It also could be the yeast as others have said. I use an instant yeast (or sourdough) and it goes straight in.

I use supermarket-own strong white bread flour - not sure of the gluten content. Do have some 00 for pasta so could give that a go?

Will get an oven thermometer, although wouldn’t be surprised if our oven wasn’t up to scratch. I really think it’s going wrong before then though, I think it’s the kneading/ingredients.

if it's tough and tight then it sounds like not enough liquid, I use my kitchen aid..., flour, honey, yeast, salt, dried milk and then milk/water and I add in about 80% of the liquid as it goes round really slowly and then add the rest in until there are no crumbies, click it up to 2 and let it rattle around for ten minutes, then prove for about an hour until it's pouffy, bash down and shape into the loaf tin and then it gets another half hour and into the oven

I use quick yeast and do two proves...except for pizza dough, that only gets the one!

I recently read about keeping water you have boiled potatoes in to use in bread making and it makes bread that lasts MUCH better.

I really like the King Arthur site for bread recipes...lots of reviews/comments questions and replies so if you are having an issue with a particular recipe it's easy to trawl through and see what's up!

Sounds like you're over proving it, I generally do about an hour for first prove, about 30-40 mins for 2nd. Also- how are you shaping it?

Weigh the liquid!!

@Ffsnosexallowed

Sounds like you're over proving it, I generally do about an hour for first prove, about 30-40 mins for 2nd. Also- how are you shaping it?

I’m just forming it into a ball shape with my hands, could probably make it tighter though. The picture I put upthread of the one I made today was proved for an hour first time, then I punched it, then just under an hour for the second prove.

The dough never, ever passes the windowpane test, it always tears. But if I keep kneading it, it stays really sticky and horrible.

Have you tried the no kneed bread? It needs to rest for a long time, but is so good and easy.

Pumper just found the video. It's very soothing (& helpful) for frustrated bakers.

www.thebertinetkitchen.com/videos/

My easiest bread recipe is as follows - I usually turn it into rolls as it saves risking a leaden lump. Very long but I have written everything I can think of!

Ingredients: 500g flour, 7g easy bake yeast (if just dried active it will need mixing with water first, possibly with a little flour - check the instructions on the packet), 4-5g salt (I use low sodium salt), 300g/ml water, table spoon olive oil

1. Weigh flour, add salt and yeast (if easy bake), make a good well in the centre and then add the water, the oil and the yeast if it's not easy bake.

1. Using a wooden spoon slowly mix in until all the water has mixed into the flour, using the well shape to pull the flour in gradually. Mix with the spoon or a dough scraper or your hands until it's not got any visible flour and doesn't look lumpy - you aren't kneading really at this point but you should be able to get a clean bowl.

1. Knead in the mixer for 5 mins (not 10 like you would by hand), keep an eye and if it's going sticky add extra flour. The kneading should be on the lowest speed.

1. You should still have a non sticky ball of dough at this point. You can then do it one of two ways: a) cover bowl with tea towel/shower cap/plastic bag and leave to rise or b) skip straight to step 5.

1. Knock the dough back if you've risen it, then slice into 8. Form into round rolls, making sure your shaping is pinched in enough that they won't become misshapen on rising.

1. Flour a non-stick baking tray, put rolls on it, flour tops and leave to rise - it needs to be covered up, preferably with something plastic that mustn't be touching the tops. This stops the weird skin forming.

1. Bake at 200 degrees fan, 220 not fan, for 10-15 mins colour dependent. I don't usually stress about water in the oven.

For loaves instead of rolls: Do you have a rising basket for your loaves? They really help with getting lift if you aren't using a tin or making rolls. Otherwise I sometimes divvy my bread into two smaller loaves as they have more structural integrity and are less likely to collapse under their own weight. Also slash the loaves carefully before they go in using a really really sharp knife and without squashing the loaf - this helps with oven spring.

The loaf looks like it needs a lot longer in the oven to me - you really have to hold your nerve with loaves and keep baking them when they are that colour.

I also think you are over proving. I over proved once and it went all weird and collapsing with strange skin.

@Pumperthepumper

I use instant yeast sachets AND melted butter. My oven is shit though, maybe it’s that?

I just want to make artisan loafs and be the the envy of everyone with absolutely no effort or error. Is that really so much to ask?

No OP it's not too much to ask. Just try the no knead method. This is just one recipe of many you'll find online...

www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/06/better-no-knead-bread-recipe.html

You need a heavy casserole pot and a hot oven and you have to wait at least overnight for the dough to prove but total effort is about five minutes and the results are spectacular.

Because of Covid, my normal flour was unavailable. I used Allinson's Canadian Wheat - Bakers Grade Very Strong White Flour. It made fantastic bread.

I've since been experimenting with a variety of bread flours and the more expensive ones do seem to make quite a difference. I won't be going back to the cheapest ones anymore.

The very strong ones seem to all make better bread than the flours described as just strong.

Look up no knead bread with Steve on YouTube and if you can get past the odd little man vibe his bread is really easy and comes out really "artisan" with minimal effort. I mix it before bed, literally just combine flour, yeast, salt and water in a big bowl and leave it on the counter in a bin bag over night
Shape it into a tin or prove in a bowl in the morning for 30-45 minutes until it looks a bit billowy then bake in a cast iron casserole. If my bread is a bit underwhelming it is usually over proved on the 2nd rise (because I forgot it) and it has no energy left. Or my shaping hasn't created a taut enough surface. The oven must be seriously hot, at least 220 if not more for 1st 30m. I'm now a sourdough person, which is a bit more involved but I don't knead that either. I really like River Cottage bread recipes, they are very basic and beginner friendly. Good luck!

[quote dopenguinsdance]Pumper just found the video. It's very soothing (& helpful) for frustrated bakers.

www.thebertinetkitchen.com/videos/[/quote]
Oh god, I love this so much! I’m now obsessed with the stern French baker, excellent stuff!

and get a pokey food thermometer probe...bread should be 195-200f inside when done. ALSO all the recipes I have used recently have been 180, I am sure when I was a girl bread was shoved in an oven at 200-250 but anyway, I get much better results at 180 than when the oven is higher.

and if you have one it will revolutionise your chicken....cook it until it is 165f or 75c in the thickest bit AND then rest it for 20-30 minutes
I always scoffed at people poking joints of meat to check temperature, but if you cook it until it looks done it is over done.

obv do not bother with the chicken tip if you are veggie.

Ah thank you to all the people who came on with more excellent ideas, will give the cast iron one a go too! And will try getting better quality flour/yeast 👍

@LaurieSchafferIsAllBitterNow

and get a pokey food thermometer probe...bread should be 195-200f inside when done. ALSO all the recipes I have used recently have been 180, I am sure when I was a girl bread was shoved in an oven at 200-250 but anyway, I get much better results at 180 than when the oven is higher.

and if you have one it will revolutionise your chicken....cook it until it is 165f or 75c in the thickest bit AND then rest it for 20-30 minutes
I always scoffed at people poking joints of meat to check temperature, but if you cook it until it looks done it is over done.

obv do not bother with the chicken tip if you are veggie.

Ah NOW this is very interesting because while my oven is shite, today I had the spooky sixth-sensey feeling of it being too high to cook the bread properly - recipe called for a 230 degree oven. And I thought, as one does when one is forced to cook with a shite oven, nah, this oven will fuck that right up, low and slow is what we want here. But then I chickened out because I didn’t know if the crust would still cook at a low temp.

I've only made bread a handful of times so no expert but has turned out okay.
I prove mine twice but the first one is way shorter than the second. After the first prove I push the air out. It's my favourite part it feels so good!

I managed to set my elderly Kenwood on fire making bread about 6 months ago so I resorted to hand baking, that really isn't much slower for any loaf.

I seem to be able to get good results with a few minutes of kneeding, neglect under oiled cling film for up to an hour and another prove on the tray or tin. cook in a hot oven and spray water in.

Are you kneeding on an oiled or floured table?

I think it is the first bit that will help.

Your dough shouldn’t be getting stickier through kneading. You sprinkle flour on the dough as you knead until it’s smooth and not sticky. I read the Paul Hollywood recipe and it says to knead on an oiled surface! That’s insane. It only needs to be a hard clean surface that has a light sprinkling if flour. The oil could be causing the stickiness.

I agree with pp on instant yeast, it’s best to prove it in some warm water until bubbly and then add to flour which has salt already mixed in.

Butter isn’t really necessary in bread. For a croissant or brioche, yes. But not regular bread. It can weigh down the crumb.

Different floors do have different levels of gluten. Wholemeal will have less gluten than white bread flour for example. So your issue isn’t lack of gluten.

I think your loaf shape may be part of the problem. Not sure on scale, but it looks too big/round to cook all the way through before crust starts to burn. Try: slashing it before second rise with cob criss cross pattern, or a longer shape or divide into two small loaves.

Pumper you won't be the first to lose it over his twisted cinnamon rolls 🤣 I'll be making a batch tomorrow (also excellent with cardamom or chocolate nibs, but use a lower cocoa fat one to minimise leaks & sogginess) Happy baking!

I always use James Morton's recipes from Brilliant Bread and haven't had a bad batch yet and I am a very amateur bread maker. His recipes are really straightforward in the main, you throw it all into a bowl, add the liquid and mix and then follow the instructions re proving.

He says that you should make sure that your salt and yeast are kept apart until you are ready to mix everything together or the salt will kill the yeast. Could that be the problem?