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Original poster

Why is it difficult to get fired in the NHS?

85 replies

hawaypet · 19/10/2020 18:39

I've seen this on quite a few threads now, that it's really hard to lose your job in the NHS. But why? Assuming that you have been employed for less than two years, then they can dismiss you very easily, just as any other company can. So where has this idea come from and why?

OP posts:
OverTheRubicon · 19/10/2020 22:18

@Artus

Also as a previous poster says people go sick with "stress" at the first hint of any investigation into performance or behaviour, and can string this out for a very long time.
Yes! You even see it on here, every time I see an op who is 'signed off for stress' I just wait for it to continue with details that show they work for the NHS. Before working more closely with the NHS I used to feel sympathy that it was such a stressful environment.

Now I'm a lot more sceptical.

RaisinGhost · 19/10/2020 22:23

Also Liquorishlucy completing your mandatory training (a few 30 min online courses about which fire extinguisher is which and hand hygiene) to "pass through a pay gateway" is nothing like personally negotiating a pay increase based on proof of your productivity. You can't compare the two at all.

CoffeeRunner · 19/10/2020 22:23

I work in an NHS hospital & although I’ve heard of some pretty shoddy practice I’ve never actually heard of anyone being sacked.

Transferred to a different ward or department sure. Frequently. But not actually sacked.

madcatladyforever · 19/10/2020 22:23

I work in the NHS and it really is difficult to get fired. I've seen people beyond taking the piss with sick leave and actually with personality disorders making staffs lives hell.I did one year in private chiropody clinics and was constantly being fired for spurious reasons, for example whenever the patient numbers dried up and there wasn't enough work they would fire one of us and then rehire someone else when work picked up. I couldn't cope with it, it was beyond depressing.

Liquorishlucy · 19/10/2020 22:24

@RaisinGhost not exactly a comprehensive survey though Hmm. Most nhs trusts round me require appraisals and mandatory traing to be completed yearly to move up the pay ladder.

madcatladyforever · 19/10/2020 22:26

In the NHS even though I'm disabled I have had just one day off sick in the last year. I don't take the piss because the benefits are very good, lots of holiday and a good pension.
I've seen other people take months and months off with "stress" and they are not challenged.

Liquorishlucy · 19/10/2020 22:28

So you have to personally negociate your salary in the private sector ?
Crikey so nurses are all paid differently depending on their 'productivity' whatever that is..Hmm

NeverAMillionMilesAway · 19/10/2020 22:29

I find it hard to believe that actual violence isn't a summary dismissal. What the fuck.

NeverAMillionMilesAway · 19/10/2020 22:30

[quote Liquorishlucy]@RaisinGhost not exactly a comprehensive survey though Hmm. Most nhs trusts round me require appraisals and mandatory traing to be completed yearly to move up the pay ladder.[/quote]
But when you are at the top of the pay ladder for your banding, why would you care?

emilybrontescorsett · 19/10/2020 22:41

When we say gross misconduct what are we talking about?
Not getting the work done, or deliberately hurting patients for example?

NHS100 · 19/10/2020 22:43

NC. I was dismissed, with 10 weeks pay (a decade service)
Basically my face didn't fit and I was managed out

Liquorishlucy · 19/10/2020 22:45

It's the blanket statement that most trusts don't bother about appraisals that I objected to. Whether they are effective is another matter. Most wards are audited on numerous things, from handwashing to critical incidents to pressure sores, and that includes appraisals and mandatory training.

Fartleking · 19/10/2020 22:48

I worked in NHS admin for 12 years. It is so frustrating to have colleagues who take the piss when the majority of clinical and admin staff I worked with were dedicated employees. Part of the problem was that our trust had a 'natural wastage' policy. Meaning if people left they weren't replaced, therefore making more work for others. There were alot of people genuinely off work with stress because of this. Managers were so overworked that going through a lengthy and fruitless disciplinary process wasn't worth it. I left because morale was so low. It makes me sad because the ethos behind the institution is wonderful.

Fluffycloudland77 · 19/10/2020 22:51

I know a case recently, female employee hit and moved off site so the man who hit her can stay in post.

He treats patients.

RaisinGhost · 19/10/2020 22:54

Liquorishlucy

Yes - individual bargaining vs collective bargaining is one of the main differences between public and private sector.

Also officially requiring appraisals and having it actually happen are two different things. Also what happens in and as a result of the appraisal is important. I've rarely or never heard of an nhs appraisal actually raising a performance issue with a staff member. When they do happen, which is extremely rare, it's just "yep everything's fine ok you can go now" - even with the worst performing staff members that have known issues.

And like I said, having to "complete your mandatory training" makes it sound like a big thing, it's not. A few 30 min online courses that people click through without reading. If the course is a video people open it and walk away leaving the video running.

mouldygrapes · 19/10/2020 22:56

It’s so hard to get HR support to performance manage people, and all the evidence & paperwork has to be 100% correct or the employee in question can appeal and will likely win.
We had a member if admin staff working for us who was demonstrably crap, oodles of evidence but it was poorly documented and managed by her line managers. They tried to dismiss her but because the process wasn’t followed exactly to the letter, she appealed and won. And then continued the same poor behaviour knowing no one would dare go through that again.

RaisinGhost · 19/10/2020 22:58

It makes me sad because the ethos behind the institution is wonderful.

Me too, it is great in so many ways, but right now normal hard working staff and our patients and service users are getting let down by people that take the piss, and there currently is no way to stop them.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 19/10/2020 23:00

@RaisinGhost

That's great Liquorishlucy but as you can see from reading the thread, that's rare.
It's not that rare Hmm In 39 years I have worked in many public sector organisations (mainly LAs). And I have had an appraisal every single year. And regular one to ones to feed in to that appraisal. Every. Single. Year. And you are also wrong about an annual pay rise - yes in some cases to move up the pay scale but once at the top there is no more pay rises (and definitely no bonuses). In my current LA there are no automatic pay rises annually at all - you have to apply for one and justify why you should be given one (with evidence) and then it may (or most likely may not) be awarded. And I am interested in the 'type' of person you believe opts to work in public services. I know that I would certainly give any private sector employee a run for their money in a like for like job.
RaisinGhost · 19/10/2020 23:10

In the nhs that's not a thing. Up to a certain level, you get pay rises automatically based on time worked. And yes once at the top there are no more pay rises. This does lead to a bit of complacency. People know that even if they work hard, they won't get a pay rise nor will they get the sack even if they slack off. As you can imagine this doesn't inspire hard work in some people.

FoundingNatie · 19/10/2020 23:28

Wasn’t there a poster on here today bragging about working for the NHS for 2 WEEKS and then going off on Covid issues, then pregnancy sickness and then maternity leave? Whilst getting sick pay too because her Trust give it to he’s starters!

Liquorishlucy · 19/10/2020 23:31

Sorry @RaisinGhost I don't know what you're trying to prove. All nhs workers are workshy abusive ambitionless slackers ? Bad apples do exist, and yes I've worked with them and reported them, but you seem to be suggesting that the private sector attracts the best staff and that is clearly ludicrous.

Feminist10101 · 19/10/2020 23:40

I’ve been head of HR for medium sized NHS trust for several years and can assure you that staff are fired when appropriate. Including those with lots of service and union reps. It’s a lot of effort, sure, but not really any harder than in any other industry.

Feminist10101 · 19/10/2020 23:41

@FoundingNatie

Wasn’t there a poster on here today bragging about working for the NHS for 2 WEEKS and then going off on Covid issues, then pregnancy sickness and then maternity leave? Whilst getting sick pay too because her Trust give it to he’s starters!
Starting sick pay is 1 month full and 2 months half from day one.
Feminist10101 · 19/10/2020 23:42

@RaisinGhost

In the nhs that's not a thing. Up to a certain level, you get pay rises automatically based on time worked. And yes once at the top there are no more pay rises. This does lead to a bit of complacency. People know that even if they work hard, they won't get a pay rise nor will they get the sack even if they slack off. As you can imagine this doesn't inspire hard work in some people.
Not in the current pay round they don’t. Lots of staff will stay on the same salary for 4-5 years and only get the increase if they meet the performance criteria to be pushed through the Progression.
RaisinGhost · 19/10/2020 23:51

Sorry RaisinGhost I don't know what you're trying to prove. All nhs workers are workshy abusive ambitionless slackers?

Obviously not, I'm saying as described above by many posters there are some issues in the nhs which seem to be ingrained. Managers aren't able to fire even very poorly performing staff, often because those staff hold accusations of bullying over their heads or repeatedly go off on endless stress leave. Other staff aren't like this but have developed a bit of a bad attitude after seeing the above piss takers constantly get away with it, and having to pick up their slack.

If we deny this issue we cannot solve the problem. By no means is the private sector perfect, it's got as many or more problems and many of the same ones. But there are some things typically done better, like managing poorly performing staff, and we can learn from that