Why is it difficult to get fired in the NHS?

[hawaypet]

I've seen this on quite a few threads now, that it's really hard to lose your job in the NHS. But why? Assuming that you have been employed for less than two years, then they can dismiss you very easily, just as any other company can. So where has this idea come from and why?

Interesting (if yet slightly depressing?!) thread, thanks!

We have a very well known member of an admin team who spends most of their time harassing doctors and being caught in stores cupboards in a state of undress during working hours. No lie, it's very well known and the member of staff makes no effort to hide it. Yet, they still have a job, they just get redeployed!! 🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️

I don't particularly agree about teaching as mentioned up thread. Certainly a lot of teachers, particularly more expensive ones, are pushed enough that they choose to leave before they are inevitably sacked, just as happens in the private sector.

Not NHS but I work for a similar large 'body' if you like where its also impossible to get anyone fired - the answer is the unions and people going off with stress. No consequences ever happen at our place because people get signed off on stress.
Our company is amazing at supporting people when they have MH issues but it unfortunately means that people take advantage in their droves because they know if they utter the stress word, any kind of performance/absence management is basically put on hold until theyve gone through company paid for therapy, which you can have up to 8 weeks of, by which point the performance issue is deemed too old to deal with or the original absence issue is buried by the stress absence and its decided that the stress absence shouldnt be counted as something we pursue with warnings etc. as we're the ones who've 'caused' it.
To put this into context, its a workplace where you get loads of team support, are paid 10k above average and about 5k above what the job is actually worth, loads of benefits, not overloaded workload wise, no cliques etc, pick your own hours no long commute etc etc etc. People get booked onto training that they dont want to do = they go off with stress. People get their annual leave turned down because too many people are already off = they go off with stress. People have run out of annual leave for the year but want feb half term off = go off with stress. Its horrible and makes the people who genuinely are at breaking point from personal issues afraid to go off because they dont want to be seen the same as the people who will openly boast about getting signed off.

Yes I agree it is very very difficult to get sacked from three nhs, staff get moved around if they do face any consequences, but most of the time poor behaviour goes unpunished.
I was told by my matron once in a sickness review meeting 'you'd have to kill someone before you got sacked in the nhs'

It’s the same in academia. Researchers and lecturers get up to all sorts and still keep their jobs. The higher up the chain (or the longer you’ve been in post), the harder it is to get rid of you in most cases.

Some of this sounds a lot like what the Church of England did with its abusers.

It took a long time to bring them to account, but if the NHS is protecting staff that have abused patients - which it clearly does (look at the horrific abuse just exposed with the patient who was repeatedly restrained unlawfully for convenience) it will catch up with it one day.

And shame on everyone who has been complicit in that abuse.

Yep, you'd have to kill someone, and even then, if you said sorry and claimed you were stressed they'd probably let you off.

The bottom line is that if you are a smart person who is very career minded, you would work in the private sector. If you know you aren't good enough to make it in private, you work for the public sector (generalisation obviously but often true). I include myself in this.

You wouldn't believe the lack of professionalism I've seen. Once I found that my colleagues had turned off the ringer on our departments phone so it wouldn't ring anymore and we wouldn't have to answer it . I turned it back on and got told off As for pp above who mentioned appraisals, yep. I've had one in fifteen years.

Its a shame there can't be a middle ground. I love that the nhs has so many great policies supporting staff, but of course people take advantage. Give people an inch and they'll take a mile.

Let's not forget the unions aren't just there to protect incompetent staff. And if a member approaches them for help presumably they have to provide it.
A massive issue particularly regarding nursing is that poorly performing students aren't weeded out (hate the expression) as quickly as they should be so they end up in a role they are unsuited to. I agree that many poorly performing staff leave before they are pushed just taking their incompetence with them.

@RaisinGhost thanks for that. Didn't realise I was so inept having spent 30 years in the nhs. And yes you are making generalisations.

@Jent13c

Most people have been in the NHS their whole life and they don't have experience of how different it is to regular careers. I went from banking to NHS. At my corporate induction they discussed a platform used for appraisals and said that our trust had one of the best appraisal rates for staff in the country...26%. I was shocked. How can you possibly prove someone is not performing in their job if you are not annually appraising it?

Completely forgot about the poor appraisal rate. Have had 2 in the last 6 years 😂

It goes like this:- Can’t be bothered to do job; manager starts asking why are you not doing the job?, person accuses manager of bullying, bullies manager, tells others that they are being bullied, goes off sick, comes back but has tribunal ongoing, gets investigated but gets moved on, etc.... for YEARS!

@Liquorishlucy I agree. Bit of an unnecessary comment from @RaisinGhost

I’ve worked with absolute arse holes, out & out, in your face bullying behaviour & nothing happens.
I left a job naming the bully in my letter of resignation, there had been repeated complaints about that person from multiple staff over a couple of years and nothing. Absolutely nothing what’s been done.

This - had a similar experience.

Loved the actual job but had to leave because the bullying was making me ill.

I've managed to get three out in nearly 20 years.

1 due to serious illness
2 due to gross misconduct. One was lucky to avoid prosecution.

@RaisinGhost
The bottom line is that if you are a smart person who is very career minded, you would work in the private sector

Are you serious? No NHS worker I know would choose to work in the private sector - lack of training, no career development, less money, less annual leave. There are rogue healthcare workers, certainly, but your statement is ridiculous.

captainprincess Liquorishlucy Yes, like I said it's a generalisation but it's true in many cases. I'm sure you are great but if you work there you will have met all the character types described on this thread many times - I have. It's only be addressing this that we can actually make changes. Because like I said, it is great in many ways and has potential to be so much better.

There is a different attitude compared to private sector and the public sector does attract a certain type of person. It's no coincidence that things are the same in every trust, every hospital.

I worked in a home supporting a man with LD, autism and challenging behaviours and apparently (before i started) a support worker screamed in his face and went mad at him for something. He was reported by the other staff and all that happened was he got moved to another home

No NHS worker I know would choose to work in the private sector - lack of training, no career development, less money, less annual leave.

There is good and bad about each sector. Typically if you are confident you can progress your career and negotiate your way to good pay etc you will choose private sector. If you dread the thought of that, the public sector may seem attractive because they use collective bargaining so you don't have too. Pay rises are automatic, and there are no appraisals.

The sickness policy which is never followed through by HR as the onus is on support, supervise, adjustments especially if the individual has an illness covered by discrimination legislation. I am aware of staff who probably work about half a year, off sick the rest and have done so for years.

Sadly sometimes it's a matter of if your face fits. I've known a senior sister develop close friendships with junior staff members, even going on holiday with them, which then made discipline problematic and allowed cliques to form.

@RaisinGhost we have appraisals evey year. If mandatory training isn't completed you don't pass through your pay gateway.

That's great Liquorishlucy but as you can see from reading the thread, that's rare.

It's the same in the civil service - far too hard to sack people. You only get sacked for;
Thieving
Violence
Leaking to the press.

Someone I knew was finally sacked for incompetence and going off sick ( just when the manager was applying performance sanctions). It took 8 years and an absolutely single minded line manager. Person was so shocked to be sacked they actually turned back up on the Monday as they literally didn't believe that the Department would sack them ( they didn't turn up to the final hearing as the union told them if they did that it would be rescheduled).

I’ve got one out but it was st the point where the police were involved.

People get “moved on” because the unionised workforce is almost impossible to properly manage for performance issues. It’s a real shame because there is a small percentage of staff utterly taking the piss.