Imposter syndrome vs just being crap

[RaisinGhost]

I've been thinking about my job problems lately, I am no good at my job and I have no confidence (anywhere, but especially at work). I opened up to a friend about it and she said it's imposter syndrome. My DH has said similar things although he hadn't heard that term before, I must be good or at least ok but I just don't know it.

I didn't press it with either of them because I didn't want to go on about myself more and seem like I wasn't taking advice, but I left both conversations frustrated and feel like no one understands me.

I know that does exist but it's still possible to just be crap. Everyone can't be great, but just doesn't know it, right?

I don't understand what people are talking about half the time. I don't know how to do a lot of things but I get other staff to do those things for me (we swap jobs around so I do their work). No I haven't got the sack but I work for the government and no one ever gets the sack here no matter how crap you are. You'd have to steal the boss' car or something, even then if you gave it back they'd probably let you stay.

Is imposter syndrome over discussed? Some people think they are crap and are, right? Like me.

I feel the exact same! Whenever I hear people talking about imposter syndrome it’s always high achievers who work all hours of the day and struggle to switch off / feel guilt about taking holidays.

I happily leave on time, take my holidays and do an ok job but my colleagues definitely know more than me. In some ways I wish I was a high achieving imposter, but I’m probably just average? On the other hand though, my feedback is always fine and I’ve not been fired yet....

How do you feel so sure you’re ‘no good’? What do your appraisals say? Can you ask for training for the things you feel shakiest about?

We don't have appraisals. And I don't want to ask for training, as the things I don't know I was supposed to learn back in uni and I've been out for ten years! So they would look at me like . Plus there isn't any training program (as you are supposed to already know it). Plus I've been trying to learn it for ten years, if I haven't got it by now, I just think it's beyond me.

In some ways I wish I was a high achieving imposter, but I’m probably just average?

Exactly, me too although I'm below average I suppose. But some people have to be, right? It's like the thinking is that any lack of confidence is wrong and you must be great. And the people that aren't great have no idea? That can't be right though. Some people are crap and know it.

On the other hand though, my feedback is always fine and I’ve not been fired yet....

Yes this is also me. We don't really get feedback but I suppose I've got the job done one way or the other for ten years.

I'm just confused because when I've talked about it, the reply was "yes everyone feels like you do, it's imposter syndrome". Do they though? Does everyone really not understand half of what is said and have to get others to cover for them? Everyone is like that? If so, how is anything getting done in this world?

Well, if it's something you were supposed to have learned at university, surely there are textbooks from which you could refresh your memory, even if there isn't any form of 'refresher' training offered at work? Surely whatever it is will have changed somewhat in the ten years since you supposedly learned how to do whatever it is?

And what do you mean when you say you 'don't understand what people are talking about' -- what kinds of things? And what kinds of elements of your job do you have to get other people to do?

I don't think there's any point in trying to figure out if you have impostor syndrome or are poor at your job -- it's needlessly stressing you out, either way, and you should deal with it before you worry yourself into an early grave.

Do you like what you do? If someone objectively proved to you that you were in fact good at your job, would that change how you felt?

I know what you mean I think. My current job is okay and I think I'm pretty good at it.

But I had a job some years back (in the civil service) and I just don't think I was intelligent enough to understand. I really tried, but I never really grasped it. And no-one around you seems to NOTICE that you don't actually really know what you're doing. And after doing the job for a couple of years you can't ask yet again how to do something you ought to have understood two years back. (And as it's job specific you can't just look it up in a book).

It's a really horrible feeling. You're not doing it intentionally, you WANT to do it well but you just don't really get it. It would be a bit like getting a job as a Maths Teacher when you've never managed to understand algebra, and you re-read all the explanations and still just can't understand it. It's too late two years into the teaching job to start telling people you don't know how to do algebra. And you want to just leave, but you can't afford to unless you find something else.

Sometimes in meetings I used to feel like I was a cat that had wandered into the room and sat on one of the chairs. The conversation just whooshed over my head.

It doesn’t sound like imposter syndrome. IS is more that you overachieve because you worry your not going to be good enough. With the greatest respect, that doesn’t sound like what is happening with you.

Do you enjoy your job? Would you prefer to retain to a job that you “click” with better?

*you’re (damn autocorrect!)

I'm wondering where you work, given that you say that you work for the Government but don't have appraisals. Until I retired last year I worked for the civil service for years and we always had appraisals. It is true that years ago people could get away with being pretty hopeless at their jobs, but that changed and people started being sacked for incompetence.

If you are swapping with colleagues the bits of your job that you don't understand, your current manager presumably doesn't realise that you can't do them. I can see that you wouldn't want to tell them now, especially as you've been there so long, but can you ask a colleague to explain how to do that part of the task? You could be very vulnerable if you suddenly get a new boss, or some of the existing staff go off sick, or leave and, as an experienced member of staff, you are asked to help train new colleagues. Even without that risk it must be very uncomfortable not being able to do all aspects of your job.

Do your colleagues know why you swap round work? I'd pick the nicest one and just say something like 'you've been doing this for me for ages that I've forgotten how to do it. Could you just remind me of the procedure?' Or ' I didn't understand what X was saying in that meeting, what did they mean when they said ...?'

No one can be blamed for not being able to do a certain aspect of their job if they have never been properly trained, but they can be blamed for failing to hiding the fact they can't do and not attempting to learn.

Good luck!

It could easily be that you're managing to cover the bases with some help from delegation. It seems unusual in the CS though that you're just left wondering how you're doing with no feedback. I would push for this.

I felt like Willowtree in one CS job, I was ill for the whole.time I was there which meant I wasn't on top form but I realised that in that particular dept there is huge churn, short postings and a consequent focus on general knowledge and picking enough up quickly to sound authoritative rather than real expertise. I soon realised that is not me, I need a solid understanding to feel confident and act decisively so left. Could it be the culture of the department that is leaving you unsure if there's no feedback? it might well be that you are solidly average or not the best at your job (but managing), but it's not really fair to leave you for 10 years wondering.

I know I'm crap as well as having imposter syndrome because I've just been picked for redundancy despite being the one who would cost most to pay off

I have this. I was head hunted for a job, management level (of which I have no experience) with a salary higher than I ever imagined I'd be paid. Keep thinking they'll realise they hired the wrong person soon!

Have you heard of the Peter Principle? It’s the idea that a person gets promoted to the level of their incompetence and it’s rife in public service. It can be utterly miserable.

It sounds like you’ve organised good coping strategies and are using your social skills effectively so give yourself credit for those things. Do you think you would be happier working elsewhere, or would that even be a possibility?

Instead of getting people to keep doing things for you, could you get them to teach you? Or set yourself personal goals to get good at some of these tasks? One at a time. If you can't understand or learn them then I would assume that you might have an undiagnosed issue with learning (for instance it takes my dd and dh longer to learn stuff, or they have to approach tasks from a different angle to others, but they have the confidence to persist and then become highly successful at things) or that you are working in a field higher than your educational level. However, what I suspect is actually the problem is your confidence. You start from the assumption perhaps that you won't be able to do something, want to hide this perceived failure and spend your life avoiding the issues or covering up, robbing yourself of the chance to actually do ok. Apologies for the armchair psychology though.

Do you enjoy your job? Would you prefer to retain to a job that you “click” with better?

I'd love to retrain but given that I can't seem to learn, I'm not sure it would be any better. In the past I've also not been able to learn supposedly easier, non professional type jobs. For example, waitressing - couldn't remember people's orders, coffee shop - boss said my coffee was horrible. I don't understand, I have a masters degree but in practical situations I'm not able to remember anything or apply it.

But I had a job some years back (in the civil service) and I just don't think I was intelligent enough to understand. I really tried, but I never really grasped it. And no-one around you seems to NOTICE that you don't actually really know what you're doing. And after doing the job for a couple of years you can't ask yet again how to do something you ought to have understood two years back.

It's a really horrible feeling. You're not doing it intentionally, you WANT to do it well but you just don't really get it.

Yes, this is exactly me.

OK thanks for the replies everyone. It has helped me clear up things in my mind. I thought that based one what people say about IS, maybe everyone felt like me. But now I see they are feeling something totally different.

This is probably so obvious but it wasn't to me. I guess it's another example of a simple, obvious thing I don't get.

I do think many people have moments when they know they’re winging it, muddling through or relying on colleagues at work. I’ve been the person who needed help and the person who gave it. You aren’t alone in that, so don’t be too hard on yourself.

I’m sure you can learn new skills. You learnt to walk and talk, read and write, use a computer and a smart phone.

When you were studying for your degree, what techniques did you use to make sure knowledge had sunk in? How did you check your understanding? Can you look back at that learning experience and see if there are approaches you can apply more widely?

Learning to learn, and to apply what you have learnt, are skills in themselves. Also, some people are great at doing a task but not so good at explaining, and might need guidance on how to help you understand. This could be why some of your training hasn’t been absorbed. You might need to think about how you learnt before a bit more, and be ready to ask lots of questions when you ask your colleagues to run through these tasks again.

For myself, if I’m working through a new system or process, the first time I am shown it I take lots of notes. The second time, I ask to do it myself with the trainer/teacher/colleague looking over my shoulder. I need to ask all the questions then like “if I make a mistake how do I fix it” and “what happens if I press this big button” on that second run through, once I have a basic understanding of the process. This is quite a lot of time for someone to give me upfront, but means I have usually mastered the task by the end of the session. If I just sit and watch, by the time I next come to do the job myself I can’t recall the details. Maybe a learning process like this would be better for you.

I had a career change from something I really struggled with to something less stressful that better matches my personality and skill set. I’m much happier and more productive.

Do you find everything hard to learn or are there some things that are easier? I have not used a career coach, but I know they are out there (don’t know what it costs). Could you speak to a friend to think about your strengths and weaknesses. Maybe look at jobs boards to see what is out there?

Feawen thank you for your post, that is all good advice. I know sometimes when I'm trying to learn something I'm already thinking "this is hopeless", then while that thought is going on I miss something, and it keeps going downhill from there.

Could you speak to a friend to think about your strengths and weaknesses.

Doing that is what made me start this thread. No one will talk honestly about this subject, they just say "oh you are being silly, everyone feels the exact same way". I guess they either don't believe me or don't want to offend me. But anyway that's fine, it's something for me to work out.

I have not used a career coach, but I know they are out there (don’t know what it costs).

I actually have seen a career coach, and just like my friends, she didn't get where I was coming from at all. She suggested I go in to equipment sales (the equipment costs hundreds of thousands so it's serious business). I tried to explain there is no way I can sell/teach others to use equipment I barely know how to use myself but she didn't get it. She just kept saying "but you must be really good". Is it that hard to understand or believe that some people are crap?

Perhaps people find it hard to understand because you've achieved a very high level of academic competence (masters)? If you can do that, you can't be crap etc!

Maybe nobody bothered to teach you your role properly because they assumed you were academically advanced and needed little guidance?? Perhaps you felt embarrassed to ask questions?

I wonder whether you could actively retrain in something vocational and then when you start working, make sure you ask questions whenever you don't understand something. Never let anything pass without fully understanding it. Make notes every day and then revisit them to make sure you have consolidated your on the job learning.

The lack of appraisals at your workplace is unhelpful. This is exactly the sort of situation where you highlight parts of your job you'd like more training in etc. Your workplace have allowed you to drift on feeling unskilled. This is as much your workplace's problem as yours!

I agree it is, but that's a seperate issue really. I can't blame them, I must take responsibility for myself.

My boss is a little like me actually. She isn't that confident so (I believe) she doesn't do appraisals as she wouldn't know what to do if someone wasn't doing the right thing, or wouldn't be confident to confront them. She was once forced to do appraisals by higher management and everyone's was about two minutes "you're fine, OK off you go". Another time she scheduled them, but she scheduled them during her annual leave (she was off for a month so I don't see how this could have been an accident!). She got back and never mentioned it.

Very interesting topic, OP!
Impostor syndrome is real, but you're right, not everyone can be above average.

However, people at the other end of the competency spectrum tend to suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect (so crap you don't know you're crap).
You seem way too self-aware to fit there!

In fact, the way you've been swapping jobs with others to ensure things get done, and the way people seems to think you're a capable person, suggests that you score high on emotional intelligence.

(pressed Post too soon... )
You seem to suffer a bit from black and white thinking, though (a belief that either someone is all good, or all bad... when in fact everyone has strengths and weaknesses)

There seems to be a mismatch between your current role, and your current abilities. But I daresay the failure is not so much from you, as from the overall management structure (no performance review, no training?? Dysfunctional workplace, really. Not your doing, you're being set up to fail!)

You may have some undiagnosed disability, too (the way you couldn't remember orders... ADHD, maybe?)

At the end of the day, though, you're not crap. If you were really crap, you would think you're awesome and all is fine.

You've just been caught in the same work trap as many ordinary people before you: fake it till you make it... until you don't make it! (not unusual, as others have pointed out)

OP I actually had to check your username to check I hadn’t written this thread myself under a different name!

I feel exactly the same way as you. I’m just terrible and in my defence I was taken on as a trainee but have been given no training so it’s not my fault that I’ve never really learned how to do my job. Most but not all things I’ve managed to learn what to do but not why I’m doing it which isn’t great.

I’ve never had an appraisal either but every time I check my emails I’m expecting to see an email telling me I’ve been let go.

I had a really really rough time in my first job and was bullied terribly by my colleague so that hasn’t helped as I don’t ever want anyone to know that I don’t know what I’m doing because she did know and made my life hell because of it.

I hope things do get better for you at some point.

Thanks for the insightful post Kaiserin, you are right that nothing is black and white. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, even me.

And I know from my posts my work place seems dire but most other people there are doing fine, so obviously I must take some blame. Like back in the day when I was a crap waitress/crap barista/crap shop assistant etc, people said "oh well you are just young". But all the other waitresses/baristas/shop assistants were the same age, and they all were doing fine.

I'm sure if you have one bad work place, it's them, but if you have 6, it's probably you.