Do you think there will ever be war in western europe again?

[deskthinker]

I don't personally have any real insights into this but have heard it mentioned on here that for todays adults the best, most prosperous and peaceful years of our life times are behind us now. Pandemics, climate change, nationalisim, creeping totalitarianisim to name a few issues seem to be upending our previously fairly stable part of the world. It feels like any one of those issues would be bad enough but when they converge at one time it feels unnerving and as if nothing could be ruled as possible in the future.

I obviously hope it would never be true but do you think we could see war in the west again in the next 20 years say?

Note: I'm not implying that war in other parts of the world is ok by me if it doesn't affect me and i know that war rages around the globe and it makes me sick.

Suppose it’s possible, and probable Britain will be involved.

Gibraltar would be the most likely cause IMO

I never even considered Gilbraltar!

I suppose some sort of devestating financial collapse is more likely than an all out war, neither is a pleasent thought.

Nope, not a chance because Western Europe is in mutual agreements for most issues, from money to environment, they are in groups, agencies, parlaments all together discussing the issues and voting for the solutions. They have the free market, and they are also on defence programs together. They have seen the dire consequences of attacking each other before, so unlikely they will repeat. Or at least I hope they are not stupid enough to repeat any of it.

@MushMonster "Or at least I hope they are not stupid enough to repeat any of it"

And there's the rub! I will hopefully agree with you though :)

They will have to burn all history books and pictures of the wars, for anyone to turn stupid enough! But that was only the beginning, al the years of hunger, proverty, and serious debt that followed and that we managed to crawl out of, those should take longer to forget, I hope. I have never met anyone who has, at least yet!

Shared prosperity is a powerful inoculation against conflict between nations. One of the greatest benefits of the EU has been tying the growth and prosperity of European nations to each other.

It's only 25 years since the Balkans imploded.

Right now Chechnya and Nagorno Karabak aren't peaceful. They're not quite 'western' but conflict in Europe is happening and yes I think enough of the old faultlines exist and it could happen.

@MushMonster

They will have to burn all history books and pictures of the wars, for anyone to turn stupid enough! But that was only the beginning, al the years of hunger, proverty, and serious debt that followed and that we managed to crawl out of, those should take longer to forget, I hope. I have never met anyone who has, at least yet!

That memory of the WWx didn't stop the civil unrest and wars in Eastern Europe post communism.

Within western/northern Europe within 20 years? No. They/we get along too well and are culturally wuite linked. Between East and West, or Turkey and EU. Possible. The west will try not to though. The world wars aren't forgotten.

but have heard it mentioned on here that for todays adults the best, most prosperous and peaceful years of our life times are behind us now.

It's an interesting question but I wouldn't personally rely on threads on Mumsnet for opinion on the subject.

I have not forgotten about the latest war in Europe either.

I don't personally have any real insights into this but have heard it mentioned on here that for todays adults the best, most prosperous and peaceful years of our life times are behind us now.

Like the cold war and Yugoslavia you mean? And the oil crisis, recessions of the 80's and 2008? The sovjet union falling apart wasn't uneventful either. I also clearly remember the problems before the berlin wall fell. Things have always been going up and down. Now it's a down, in ten years time it could be totally different again. Just take it as it comes.

I suppose I mean a war that could come to the west so it could be with a non european country but where there is actualy war on our soil iyswim?

@rorosemary I was born after the wall came down so much of what you mention didn't happen in my lifetime or if it did I was only a baby.

@deskthinker

I suppose I mean a war that could come to the west so it could be with a non european country but where there is actualy war on our soil iyswim?

Which country are you in? I know that a lot of English people think that they had it bad in WW2 but it doesn't compare to what happened in some countries like Poland. (I really feel that Poland is such an overlooked country while they fought so hard and suffered so much). I do think that there is too much romantic view about "blitz spirit" that is far from reality and that doesn't help. People should be mucg more frightened of war on theor soil. It helps that the UK is an island, so in your scenario it would probably be mailand Europe that would be hit first.

[quote deskthinker]@rorosemary I was born after the wall came down so much of what you mention didn't happen in my lifetime or if it did I was only a baby.[/quote]
It did happen to people that are now working adults though. I had several friends (now in their forties so hardly ancient) who fought in Yugoslavia. It was very traumatic for them. It really wasn't that long ago. If you're much younger then you might be used to all this prosperity. But I can tell you that things never stay the same. They never did and probably never will.

I always assume there won't be because people will be afraid someone will use nukes. Although by assume I really mean hope.

Depends what you class as War.

Terrorism is a form of war it rumbled along in Northern Ireland for years. The UN wanted to intervene at one point.

Without the religious bits, we have individuals hell bent on splitting the United Kingdom.
Island groups (Shetland & Orkney) looking to assert their authority, questioning independence, for themselves. Probably looking at other small islands (Isle of Man, & Channel Islands) with independence saying if they can do it why can't we.

I can't see a major war in Mainland Europe but I wish I was confident that the UK itself won't end up in bits or a civil war.

nationalisim, creeping totalitarianisim to name a few issues seem to be upending our previously fairly stable part of the world.

The war you speak of has been going for some time. Russia has never accepted the break up of the Soviet Union and Putin is the man chosen to resurrect that country again. It has the potential to become immensely rich but existing alliances between the West and the rest of the prevent that in Putin's view. He is playing a long game, as the US did with their star wars programme and investment in oil, but the war is here now and its cyber-based.

Putin is by far the most dangerous threat to our ways of life more than anything else out there.

@Antonov

nationalisim, creeping totalitarianisim to name a few issues seem to be upending our previously fairly stable part of the world.

The war you speak of has been going for some time. Russia has never accepted the break up of the Soviet Union and Putin is the man chosen to resurrect that country again. It has the potential to become immensely rich but existing alliances between the West and the rest of the prevent that in Putin's view. He is playing a long game, as the US did with their star wars programme and investment in oil, but the war is here now and its cyber-based.

Putin is by far the most dangerous threat to our ways of life more than anything else out there.

@Antonov why do you think that Putin is more dangerous than Erdogan? Serious question, this is something that friends and us debate a bit after a glass of wine. Both are military powers and both have ideals that are very different to western European life. I'm on the fence who is more dangerous at the moment. Although both would attack the east firsr I guess. The USA has been clear by voting Trump that they cannot be trusted again to help keep Europe democratic. We might be on our own here.

Wasn’t that one of the advantages of being in the EU? We were all on the same side

Erdogan might be, but Putin can never look anything other than dangerous in my eyes if you stand the two together. He is smart, cunning and very capable. Our intelligence agencies worry about him most.

Putin is by far the most dangerous threat to our ways of life more than anything else out there.

Agree entirely. The Cold war has never stopped.

We have NATO, which has kept the peace in Europe for 70 years now, with US money bankrolling it, so I don't think we'll see a way in our immediate vicinity within the next 20 years. The Balkans, however, are another matter, and it has been rumbling there for a while.

We might see Putin try to take bites out of the Baltic states, as he did with the Russia/Georgia conflict in 2008.

Erdogan is also very dangerous, but Turkey is still within the NATO Alliance and so can be pressured by the other Allies.

The USA has been clear by voting Trump that they cannot be trusted again to help keep Europe democratic. We might be on our own here. The USA under Trump has kept the money flowing into NATO; has men and materiel positioned in Europe, and is a key member of the Five Eyes. The US has not withdrawn from any of those commitments.
One could argue that it is US spending that underpins European defence, because apart from a few notable exceptions, European alliance members do not meet their defence spending commitments, and rely on the US umbrella.

One could argue that it is US spending that underpins European defence, because apart from a few notable exceptions, European alliance members do not meet their defence spending commitments, and rely on the US umbrella.

I never saw it like that. You might be right.

100% agree too.