Social Services - am I naive?

[Autumnwoman]

A FB friend/acquaintance has recently had her children removed by Social Services, pending an X-Ray on a 5-month old baby's rib. She says he was injured by a toy (trying not to be too outing, for her sake).

She seems like a lovely lady - I don't know her well, but she used to do some cleaning at the school where I work. She had a troubled past herself in and out of care, but has always come across to me as trying to make the best for herself and her family. I often see her playing with her children in the park etc.

If she genuinely has had her children removed because of one bruise on a baby (and suspected broken rib), surely this is massively excessive. I understand there are places kids don't often bruise and it can be a cause for concern, but surely removing her children for this is a HUGE step.

Or am I naive, and will there be a massive history, and this is the last straw, as it were? Is this likely to be the tip of an iceberg, or do kids really get removed for one suspicious incident? I want to support her - but want to make sure I'm offering support in good faith.

[quote WorrierorWarrior]@User3405678
I have experienced the lies of Social Workers. They even write totally illogical lies. If a lie is spoken it is harder to prove but a written lie is provable.
I have even seen borderline criminal behaviour from Social Workers and children suffering as a result of actions or inactions of Social Workers.
If Social Workers are so educated and well trained they should get it right whatever the situation but that does not seem to be the case. Adults and children are harmed by them but there does not seem to be any repercussions to these Social Workers.[/quote]
I have sat and listened to lying parents blatantly blaming their child/partner for things they have done, including one blaming a three year old for the death of a baby she (the three year old to make it clear) was supposed to be minding while the mother was upstairs in bed with her new partner.

I have also seen the repercussions to their children.

If social workers err on the side of caution I am prepared to support them.

I call utter bullshit about the social work degree..

If it had been a mobile 3 year old then I’m sure that would have been different, but a 5 month can’t move so it couldn’t have been an accident?

Older kids have bruises all the time, it’s normal but there are certain areas that would be difficult to bruise accidentally, such as the inside of the thighs, behind the ear. These are red flags.

My two are 12 and 8 and thankfully we’ve never been to A&E really other than rash, temp etc... but I remember when my oldest was in hospital with something unrelated and the paediatrician at the time asked what the scar was on my DC back (she was about 2.5/3) and it was the first chicken pock she ever got and so I told the paediatrician this and that was the end it was never mentioned again.

That would have been her investigating (and rightly so) a potential ‘injury’ that would have been difficult to obtain. Thankfully she accepted my legitimate reason and all was well. I now have a healthy almost teenager that’s never been to A&E since.

They are clever people and they know when something is off.

@MrsSnitchnose it’s ok, we laugh about it as well. We were just waiting for something else to happen on the Friday! I think we ended up staying in. I was however glad we had been with friends including a GP and a nurse when some of the accidents happened!

I do think with things like this it’s better for ‘some’ innocent people to have to be questioned/investigated and to err on the side of caution than for some poor children to slip through the net.

Friends of friends baby rolled off changing mat and broke a leg think he was about 9 months he could move. SS did massive investigation they were both interviewed and grandparents others etc. Serious injury in a baby triggers this automatically. They were very gentle couple both university Professors (know that doesn’t matter as anyone can be abusive but saying they investigate anyone this happens to whatever your circumstances) they both started crying even relating what happened. They were cleared

Naïve.

I have a friend who sits on panels for safety of children. Removing is a last resort because it's costly and there aren't enough foster carers.

I also have been in a situation where I was around parents who were using a contact centre to see their children. They can sound very plausible and appear lovely. I think often they convince themselves the backstory.
Then sometimes the child comes out with something that happened and it can be a real shock.

Yes, sometimes mistakes happen, but I think more often in that the child is left in danger than removed.

And I've never known a parent in that situation who doesn't think they were hard done by and victimised at the beginning. I've known a couple who have, with support, recognised that they have caused problems and are keen to rectify that. But those I've seen at that point have been at the easing the child back to live with them stage, so along way down the line.

There will be far more to this. SS don't take children away for the hell of it. My children's father was violent and there was an awful incident involving the DC. SS visited and decided I was able to keep them safe. After this DC has fallen down the stairs and ended up in A&E, cut themselves ending up in A&E and was for a large part of their lives covered in bruises. SS work with families and in my experience have been nothing but a support through me leaving my violent ex.

@nevernotstruggling

The x ray is done before the removal so the pending x ray is bs. X rays come back in a matter of hours surely you have seen casualty.

In some hospitals X-Ray departments do not operate out of hours so even kids with broken bones are sent away till Monday. I imagine it would also need more careful examination than a standard X-Ray since there is a possibility of abuse.

Right now nobody knows what has happened, it may be abuse or an accident or a sign of another medical condition. I would just try and support the mother right now and hope SS do the right thing for the kids in the long term.

@Snowmonster

The balance of probability is used in family court and social workers don't have to prove that a child is being abused, they just have to present a case that there is 51% probability that the child is at significant harm if they remain at home.

Any other court you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt and are innocent until proven guilty.

Not in a family court

As it should be.

The child will have had a child protection medical by a paediatrician. They will know her account of how the injury was caused, if the child has been removed then they are concerned that the injury does not match the account given.

@viques Prior to what Social Workers have done and I can prove what they did I would have said the safety of children came first but not any longer. They are supposed to protect children. They are not supposed to be contradicting Court Judgements. This is what I have seen done. To compound their actions once they were told categorically by several highly qualified consultants NHS and private exactly what the situation was, they could not apologise for what they got wrong. They have spent many years since then arguing for the sake of arguing and they are still wrong!
The details would be very outing

At 5 months old my child became a toddler and had all the toddler bruises and bumps that come with it. Never once was any doctor, nurse, or health visitor even the slightest bit concerned. There would have been a lot more to it than you've been told

You're naive OP.

I was surprised that the X-Ray hadn't taken place straight away. I am unsure if the children have actually been taken into care or are with her (ex) partner. I know she is only allowed an hour supervised contact each week.

She is actively campaigning for the recall of this toy, which has also been seized for investigation. I know I'm being vague, but on purpose, obviously.

I'm pretty good at bureaucratic bullshit, and I know she's not particularly well-educated, so I'm a bit torn between offering her my help in any form-filling, statement writing etc., and obviously not wanting to help an abuser get their children back.

I think if I was giving advice to someone else, I'd probably say "stay out of it", but I'm also worried about her being a suicide risk herself, given some of the things she's posted on SM. Be kind, and all of that.

Op if you wish if this is a court situation the this lady will have a solicitor paid for by legal aid. She won't need help with a statement.

Adding my voice to those saying that such an injury in a non-mobile child will very likely automatically trigger SS involvement and the child/ren may be removed until the facts are established. It could well be an innocent, isolated incident.

There's also the possibility that it isn't, but this is one of the situations where SS have the power to move very quickly to remove a child temporarily from their parents/carers. So don't assume they have been building a file for some time, there may well be no more to it than this. Either way I think you can be kind to this woman.

Sorry posted too soon. She might need help with relinquishing benefits or going to the gp for mental health support or any other tasks suggested by ss.

Offering support does not mean you have taken the side of an abuser especially in this case where whether there even is one is unclear.

The x Ray might be back. But they will need to wait for a consultant paediatric radiologist to review the image so that no mistakes are made. They may well not be one available at weekends.

Also it's very standard with a non accidental injury to request of the parent that the children are cared for elsewhere. The children being with their father whilst an investigation is carried out is very plausible. This is also a likely scenario if the paediatric exam is incomplete.

It may be a skeletal survey that's outstanding. When immobile babies show an injury it's common practice to check for more/old injuries.

I think there’ll be more to it.

I’m a social worker and believe me it isn’t easy to remove a child. I’ve also seen some incredibly believable defences from parents on social media etc, they conjure up believable lies and soon have lots of people backing them up and believing they did no harm. They actively campaign for law changes etc and it’s all a massive cover up.

The 1 hour a week supervised contact sounds normal for care proceedings during covid

SS have the power to move very quickly to remove a child temporarily from their parents/carers

SS have no power to remove a child, temporarily or otherwise, from their parents/carers if the parents/carers do not agree.

Only courts do (or the police - but only for 72 hours).

If you want to help her, help her get a suitable solicitor and help her find organisations who help people in her situation such as www.frg.org.uk.

You don't have to decide whether she is a fit mother or whether or not there has been abuse - it would be pretty impossible for you to do so.
Helping her get professional help as per the above is probably the right thing to do. It would not be at all naïve for you to help her do that.

Can you update us once the xray is done? Holding back confidential info obviously. It would just be quite interesting, given some of the comments here.

@Autumnwoman If you want to help her, help her get a suitable solicitor and help her find organisations who help people in her situation such as www.frg.org.uk.

You don't have to decide whether she is a fit mother or whether or not there has been abuse - it would be pretty impossible for you to do so.
Helping her get professional help as per the above is probably the right thing to do. It would not be at all naïve for you to help her do that.

Can you update us once the xray is done? Holding back confidential info obviously. It would just be quite interesting, given some of the comments here.

@CakeGirl2020

Thing is anyone can appear lovely. Even those we think we know well can surprise us with actions sometimes.

Maybe this lady that appears lovely, lost her temper and was a cunt to a very small child who couldn’t defend themselves.

I wouldn’t be offering any sympathy and I’d be staying clear tbh. Maybe she has had a shitty life but social services have removed her child with suspicious bruising, removing a child is a very last straw decision from social services. A shitty life, doesn’t mean you can harm a child.

That poor baby, Its the baby who needs sympathy.

^ This x1000