Is it because women tend to be more houseproud than men?

[Anordinarymum]

So many threads on here talking about the end of a marriage with one of the main contributing factors being that men refuse to do housework saying it's not their job - prompt me to ask the following questions..

Is it do you think our own fault for ending up like a maid to our other halves simply because we have a better eye for cleaning and making the house presentable ?

Is it because we get the 'nesting' instinct as a result of having babies and a pattern develops which is hard to break?

I think there is a combination of reasons for women being landed with the responsibility to look after the home; with another one being that men tend to have been looked after by a generation of women who thought is was their job to wait on men hand and foot, and they automatically slide into that role when they get married?

It's s shame when a marriage becomes a toil of a pleasure for the woman simply because her OH is lazy don't you think ?

Socialisation. But it’s perfectly possible to resist it.

To be honest, I only see extreme female house cleanliness obsession on Mn — the kind of thing where someone says she literally cannot sit down in the evening until the house meets some ingrained standard not shared by her husband. But neither do I see the unequal household gender dynamics I see accepted as normal on here among the people I know.

My husband currently does significantly more housework than me. I’m heavily pregnant and still doing most bedtimes etc for our toddler but in honesty my husband is just more bothered and more keen to get the jobs done than I am. He can’t go to bed with the house a mess. If he does (like last night he fell asleep before sorting the kitchen) he was down an hour before starting work to sort it because it was on his mind.
Curiously some jobs don’t seem to be on his radar, changing the bedding being one he just wouldn’t notice needs doing.
His mum has always worked part time so probably did the majority of the house work but there’s an aspect of hoarding and clutter with his parents and I think this is the reason my husband is the way he is.

So why then are there so many men who refuse to do jobs/look after children/let their oh have a much needed lie in/ or even put the rubbish out?

I wonder if it just crept in as time went along because surely to hell you would not want to have children with a man like this ??

@Anordinarymum

So why then are there so many men who refuse to do jobs/look after children/let their oh have a much needed lie in/ or even put the rubbish out?

I wonder if it just crept in as time went along because surely to hell you would not want to have children with a man like this ??

There are many reasons for this many of which some biological and some societal. Women are biological more inclined to 'nest building' and this is reinforced by society. That said could you imagine the uproar on MN if a man insisted a woman went back to work while he left his job to look after after the kids just because she earned more?

That said could you imagine the uproar on MN if a man insisted a woman went back to work while he left his job to look after after the kids just because she earned more

There is certainly an element of this. One of the barriers to more shared parental leave and part time working seems to be a lot of women saying 'that time is mine, he's not having it'.

Fair enough to having time off to recover from birth and establish breastfeeding but there would be more equality in the workplace if it was the norm for men to take a decent share (eg 3 months) of parental leave. Plus flexible, part time or compressed hours being more the norm for everyone, male or female, parents or not.

Maybe one positive consequence of Covid will be a lot less business travel so parents can easier combine being a parent with a career because they are away a lot less and waste less time on travel.

There is certainly an element of this. One of the barriers to more shared parental leave and part time working seems to be a lot of women saying 'that time is mine, he's not having it'.

I agree to an extent, @BarbaraofSeville, but I think we need to see that stubborn clinging to maternity leave in the context of women terribly often relinquishing independent economic power at this stage in their lives from a combination of social pressure and socialisation, and the (frankly mad) idea I see so often on here that because childcare would be expensive and would equal her salary, therefore she must give up work. I think the insistence on taking all of maternity leave is a minor exertion of power in a situation where many women are suddenly facing a life in which they have a lot less power.

There is also the fact that some people - myself (male) included - who think that staying at home and looking after the kids and partner and homemaking is the best thing ever. I love it and don't want to do anything else. I have to because of economic necessity but I resent my time away from my real role in life.

@Frenzies

There is certainly an element of this. One of the barriers to more shared parental leave and part time working seems to be a lot of women saying 'that time is mine, he's not having it'.

I agree to an extent, @BarbaraofSeville, but I think we need to see that stubborn clinging to maternity leave in the context of women terribly often relinquishing independent economic power at this stage in their lives from a combination of social pressure and socialisation, and the (frankly mad) idea I see so often on here that because childcare would be expensive and would equal her salary, therefore she must give up work. I think the insistence on taking all of maternity leave is a minor exertion of power in a situation where many women are suddenly facing a life in which they have a lot less power.

But as I mentioned before that financial barrier no longer exist. It would be just as economical for men to stay at home as it would women for those about to have their first child.

It would indeed, @jdoejnr1. Which is where socialisation comes into it. I've seen endless threads on here where it's assumed by vast numbers of people, not all male, that the career of a woman who has children suddenly becomes curiously optional, whereas there is no equivalent assumption for the child's male parent.

I can't help feeling that @TheSandman's obviously sincere preference for staying at home with his children might feel less whole-hearted if he had grown up female in a society which still thinks it 'natural' for many women to be at home.

I’m female but would hate to live with a fair few women on here! All this putting something straight in the dishwasher as soon as you’ve used it, keeping the kitchen sides clear, picking up this and that all the time.

I’m more of a let it go to pot a bit and then blitz person. If I’ve just eaten a nice dinner, maybe accompanied by a glass of wine, the last thing I want to do is go and start loading the dishwasher and cleaning the kitchen! Personally I also find cleaning a lot more satisfying when it’s a bit of a mess to begin with. If everything’s already spotless and you’re just cleaning it to keep it that way, that just feels boring and a waste of time to me.

Honestly I sometimes feel a bit sorry for the partners on those threads as it’s one thing to want a fair distribution of housework but I think sometimes it can verge on being anal and controlling to expect another person to live up to someone else’s very high standards.

All this putting something straight in the dishwasher as soon as you’ve used it, keeping the kitchen sides clear, picking up this and that all the time.

The one that depresses me particularly is the self-imposed 'rule' of never going up or downstairs without carrying something to where it out to be. I have this vision of women grimly trudging up and down stairs, scanning their immediate surroundings for things to move around.

In my situation, I think it's a few things. My OH is definitely happier living in mess and clutter. He has a room in the house thats mainly used by him and is always a lot messier. I wouldnt enjoy spending time in there but he doesn't mind. But there is also socialisation. He does cleaning/household tasks but has to be delegated to. He doesn't try and hold all the info about what needs to happen in his head, but I feel I have to. There are some jobs (e.g. cleaning fridge) that I don't think he realises exist because he's never lived on his own for more than a year or so (and he just left things like that). In terms of childcare, he does quite a lot, but I tend to feel like the default parent and he is "helping out". I try not to do anything just for him, e.g. do his washing. I am going back to work full time soon and he is going to do lots more childcare, I hope it helps him see how much I do.

@jdoejnr1 That's basically what we are doing. I earn more, so cutting maternity short, back to work full time whilst he quits his job (except the odd shift) and does most of the childcare. Let's see how it turns out!

As regards to maternity/paternity leaves and why women want to hold onto it all.

Surely a simple explanation could be biology? Women are the ones who are pregnant, carry a baby and have all the hormones associated with that. So they have a more emotional connection to their children?

*I’m female but would hate to live with a fair few women on here! All this putting something straight in the dishwasher as soon as you’ve used it, keeping the kitchen sides clear, picking up this and that all the time.

I’m more of a let it go to pot a bit and then blitz person. If I’ve just eaten a nice dinner, maybe accompanied by a glass of wine, the last thing I want to do is go and start loading the dishwasher and cleaning the kitchen! Personally I also find cleaning a lot more satisfying when it’s a bit of a mess to begin with. If everything’s already spotless and you’re just cleaning it to keep it that way, that just feels boring and a waste of time to me*

Is it always you that clears up though? It’s not so much they leave pots by the dishwasher instead if in it, it’s that it stays there.

I will clear up before I go to work. I come home to make dinner, to find the kitchen full of used cups, pans, chopping boards etc, where people have made themselves lunch or a snack and left it to clear up “later”.

It’s not so much they don’t clear up immediately, it’s that it gets left. It’s not that I want it spotless, just to be able to cook dinner or make myself a sandwich without moving everyone elses shit first.

I’m female but would hate to live with a fair few women on here! All this putting something straight in the dishwasher as soon as you’ve used it, keeping the kitchen sides clear, picking up this and that all the time.

That's all well and good, but if DH didn't clean his breakfast stuff up before he left for work, I'd have no choice but to come down and do it, otherwise I couldn't make my own breakfast. Our kitchen is tiny and if someone else leaves their mess and crumbs everywhere, nobody else can use the kitchen.

I also think it's really disrespectful to just leave your stuff lying around, knowing you're going out and someone else will have to deal with it. Leaving stuff for "later" is fine as long as you're going to pick it up and deal with it before it becomes someone else's problem.

Another way women are held responsible is as mothers of sons who don't pull their weight. I've never seen it suggested that, for example, DH's father set a bad example or didn't encourage him to see what needs doing, but there is a lot of blaming MILs for lazy DHs. Obviously mothers need to prepare children for the real world too, but I think it should be seen as both parents' responsibility.

@FutureProofed

It would indeed, *@jdoejnr1*. Which is where socialisation comes into it. I've seen endless threads on here where it's assumed by vast numbers of people, not all male, that the career of a woman who has children suddenly becomes curiously optional, whereas there is no equivalent assumption for the child's male parent.

I can't help feeling that @TheSandman's obviously sincere preference for staying at home with his children might feel less whole-hearted if he had grown up female in a society which still thinks it 'natural' for many women to be at home.

Maybe. But I'll never know. I do know I never wanted kids. Seriously didn't. But when my wife became pregnant and it was obvious we were going to keep the baby it was also equally obvious that I was going to be the stay at home parent. She had a better paying job which she enjoyed and I quickly discovered that that I really liked being a dad and - for want of a better word - a househusband. It felt natural.

I can understand why people would want to leave it all to someone else - it is at times, as everyone here knows, a hard, thankless task - but it must also be hard to be expected to return to work as soon as possible after the birth of your baby. I know there's a great weight of history and societal assumptions at play here but, when it comes down to it, it is an individual decision. I would hate to think that any woman feels pressurised to return to work when they don't want to just as I hate the idea that men don't think it's 'their job' to wipe their babies' arses, clean the toilet and wash up after they've cooked.

Divorce also factors in- women are nearly always given RP, even if the dad has equal involvement and wants main care.

So a man who gives up work or takes a step back from his career to care for children could be left with no job, no house and no kids should he split with his partner. It is far riskier to take on childcare responsibilities as a man than as a woman, where you are pretty much guaranteed to keep RP of the kids and therefore the family home, and CM as income.

My STBX would do multiple loads of washing, then hang them up wrinkled, without shaking them out. Soo f*ing annoying. I had to redo the whole lot. FFS.

Don’t agree at all. My husband is much more house proud, organised and tidier than me.

My STBX would do multiple loads of washing, then hang them up wrinkled, without shaking them out. Soo fing annoying. I had to redo the whole lot. FFS*

Shaking washing out? Surely you just take it out the washing basket and peg it out?

@Micah

My STBX would do multiple loads of washing, then hang them up wrinkled, without shaking them out. Soo fing annoying. I had to redo the whole lot. FFS*

Shaking washing out? Surely you just take it out the washing basket and peg it out?

If you shake before hanging I find it almost always eliminates the need for ironing. Does for me anyway.

My dad set an excellent example to me and my ds and db or how a man could and should pull his weight. My dm used to say that he could do anything she could do except have babies (because she never doubted as a woman she could do everything he could - it was up to him to prove himself)

Through college and early dating I judged boys very poorly who couldn’t keep their rooms tidy or pull their weight. It was an absolute turn off. I didn’t consciously look for a man who did a fair share but I don’t think it’s an accident that I married one.

Ironically in a sahm now, and doing most of the “women’s work” but dh respects that, and when it comes to holidays, lockdown, or illness, he just does what needs doing because it does. And I step up to help him when the need arises.

I find these threads blaming women as mothers, as wives or just as people with decent standards, so misogynistic and depressing.

My ddad had a huge impact on my partner choices. All dads do. When more men choose to prioritise being great dads above anything else, we’ll solve a shit load of social problems. Women are already contributing hugely to the greater good - it’s men that need to step up here.

@StopCryingYourHeartOut

As regards to maternity/paternity leaves and why women want to hold onto it all.

Surely a simple explanation could be biology? Women are the ones who are pregnant, carry a baby and have all the hormones associated with that. So they have a more emotional connection to their children?

Mums have the birth to recover from Dads don’t. It must be fairly shit going back to work when you’ve only just recovered and done the hardest bit of babydom.

When we have a child together we’ll share leave, but no one will have the added trauma of a birth to recover from, which makes it much easier.