Would you go even though it's breaking the rules?

[studychick81]

So, in a bit of a dilemma. Last year a group
Of us 8 adults, 9 children booker a uk camping trip for June. Covid hit so we postponed it until a couple of weeks time. However, now they have changed the rules to 6 only. So we rung the campsite and they aren't happy to change the date again. They said come or loose our money, we have all paid the balance of a few hundred pounds.

We can't decide what to do. Two of the families have made it clear they are still going and describe others on the campsite who might be worried as fun spongers! The other three families are unsure what to do. We don't want to loose the money but aren't sure how social distancing would work with the kids.

7 of the nine children go to the same school and 5 of them are in the same bubble anyway. The parents and I see each other everyday and chat in the playground.

We have hired 5 pods between 4 families so would be sleeping separately as a family unit within the rules. The adults have agreed we can social distance and will have to do planned activities/meals in family groups or groups of 6. But I know the kids won't social distance. They are used to being in a bubble of 48 at school.

What shall we do?

You are putting everyone your dc are in a bubble with at risk. Of course you should stick to the rules, doing otherwise would be very selfish.

I would contact the site again in light of the legal change. Ask about their covid policy. They can't really ask you to break the law if you booked as a large group.

Also, if you did go (which would still be illegal), surely the dc can be supported to social distance? It would just require more work by the parents. Either they are toddlers who you keep hold of, or they are older children who can understand the rules and that there will be consequences for not following them. I wonder if you mean that the adults don't particularly want to trail their dc enforcing social distancing?

If the campsite is open and you are staying in your own pod then yes. No one on the campsite will be SD. Kids will be playing together.

Crunch- yes, that is a worry. I would feel so bad if that happened. That is the main thing stopping me, others in the group don't seem to mind.

I think they have put this rule in place to try and keep the schools open, I think that needs to be done at all costs.

I live in a university city and I think the rates will rise rapidly when the students return. It has a big number of students and more than one university. One of which is right next to my children's school so we have constant interaction with students who mostly do not even try and keep away.

How will it work at school OP if the kids go back and are talking about it? Will you need to warn them to lie if someone asks? Or advise them about how to rebuff any accusations from schoolmates about breaking the law?

I don't think it's worth that.

@studychick81

We would have lost our money. It was postpone or loose money. Back when it was cancelled it was impossible to know if we would have been ok by September or not. It was better to change the date then loose our money unnecessarily

Apologies, I hadn't thought through the timescales of how far back it was cancelled. It did seem back in March that the situation might be much better by now. I may not have cancelled initially, but probably would have done as the date got closer and nothing had changed (and cases started going up)

Could you really not just do your own thing within separate families? Then you don't lose money and still get a holiday?

But 4 of the children are in a bubble anyway and have close contact at school all day.

3 of the children are in the same school but not the same bubble. 2 are in their own bubbles at Pre school.

We weren't referred to as fun spongers, those who might comment that we shouldn't be together or are concerned were. I personally don't think that.

We would have to keep the kids out of the pods.

Yeah I would go as you would be with that many people if you hadnt even booked with friends or family, there would be 5 other random people there, that no doubt you would end up chatting to no doubt kids would play together. You can still stay apart?

Nope you could easily end up breaking the law, which is very clear now about not mixing

1. Seeing friends and family

When seeing friends and family you do not live with you should:

follow social distancing rules
limit how many different people you see socially over a short period of time
meet people outdoors where practical: meeting people outdoors is safer than meeting people indoors because fresh air provides better ventilation
Limits on the number of people you can see socially are changing. From Monday 14 September, when meeting friends and family you do not live with you must not meet in a group of more than 6, indoors or outdoors.

From 14 September - when the new rules apply - it will be against the law to meet people you do not live with in a group larger than 6 (unless you are meeting as a household or support bubble). The police will have the powers to enforce these legal limits, including to issue fines (fixed penalty notice) of £100, doubling for further breaches up to a maximum of £3,200

So say your family is 4, you can only interact with two others, how is that going to work, as it’s not supposed to be 2 say 9 to 11, then another 2 say 11 to 12

There’s been a case near us, birthday celebration at a restaurant, tables of 6. Couple of days later 5 went down with civics across all the tables, restaurant b,shed. But actually one of the highest s had it, didn’t stay within the table bubble but left and spoke to others sitting with them and passes it on. It’s very simple to do

I would not be going

Thanks Richard.

Yes, that's what we have been discussing. In my mind it kind of makes it pointless going though as there is no socialising. Might as well just do something as a family. Takes any fun out.

I am so conflicted as I do think the rules need to be stick to in order to keep schools going. We have vulnerable people in our family and would definitely keep away from them for the two weeks regardless.

@studychick81

Zig- yes that's what we would do. I do feel what's the point though as it takes the fun out of it.

I think stealing from John Lewis is a bit different, we aren't stealing, no one is loosing money.

It's the children, it will be impossible to keep them separated, they won't understand as 5/9 of them are in the same bubble anyway.

OP - You are quite correct.

No-one is losing money BUT what you're considering is far worse.

You are thinking about breaking a law put in place to prevent more deaths.
What the hell gives you the right to be above the law and disregard other people's life's!!!

The law is there to protect life and to preserve health - outcomes far more serious and consequential than shoplifting.

Shoplifting was an example of wanton law breaking - what you're planning is far more selfish as, by your actions, the virus could spread and who knows what the consequences could be.

None of us like these restrictions but we are morally, and legally bound to respect the rule of law.

*But 4 of the children are in a bubble anyway and have close contact at school all day.

3 of the children are in the same school but not the same bubble. 2 are in their own bubbles at Pre school.*

Yes but literally everyone has a good reason why, apparently logically, it won't make any difference to them , it's not really the point. The government will not have wanted to do this, it'll be the last thing they wanted to do - they'd far rather be telling you good news, so they must believe it will help.

OK should read 5 went down with covid across all tables, restaurant blamed. But actually one of the guests had it. Etc etc

No way will the kids socially distance for the holiday, the ones in the bubble together at school won't see the point, kids struggle with it anyway.
Really you shouldn't be going but the campsite owner had put you in a predicament. I couldn't afford to lose my holiday money. But if other campers are cross to be sharing the campsite with a big group and call the police I wouldn't want the fine either.
I honestly don't know what I'd do. I'd lean towards not going (I think).
If you go, go knowing you could be fined, the kids won't social distance reliably (and I bet the grown ups don't either) and decide on that basis. But don't kid yourself.

BTW OP - Your thread title is misleading.

You would not be breaking the "rules" by going.
You'll be breaking the "LAW"

Look, everyone is having to make decisions that suck as a result of Covid. This is one you’re having to make. Yes you’re out money for no holiday but everyone is out something. Some are out of jobs. Some are out of seeing their parents or grandchildren, some are out of attending their grandmother’s funeral. We are all having to accept things that really suck. This is just your thing right now.

I would go, it's not like you're booked to stay in the same house. You're not really going together as such, you'll just be in the same place and meeting up in groups of 6.

My understanding is you can see 5 others from any household at the same time. So I could see one group of 5 and then a different group and another in the same day, just no more than 6 together at one time.

This is my understanding too. I don't know why people are making so many assumptions about people they don't know not adhering to rules, if you feel unhappy with anyone's behaviour you can avoid them once you're there. Likewise, if you're unhappy with the set up you can always go home.

I couldn't afford to lose my holiday money.

If you couldn’t afford it then you couldn’t afford to go on the holiday.

So I could see one group of 5 and then a different group and another in the same day, just no more than 6 together at one time.

Yes, that will outsmart the virus

And this is why the r number is now back above 1 according to a headline this morning.

If everyone says “well I would just/only my family are/it’s pointless” then that’s how the virus spreads.

My DP is here from Birmingham ATM. We are already social distancing and he is in the spare room as I have vulnerabilities. But it’s just been announced that households in Birmingham are no longer allowed to mix from Tuesday, therefore when he goes back he realistically won’t be coming back here until the restriction is lifted.

It’s clear that people won’t adhere to the law until the figures are way up again and we go into complete lockdown. But let’s all blame the government instead of the people who think they are different and should be able to do what the hell they want and who gives a shit about the consequences....

@CoffeeRunner - For me there are so many grey areas with the guidelines/rules. To follow them by the letter, you couldn’t camp in the same place as your friends. But you could camp in the same place as 100 strangers.

There really aren't any 'grey areas' in the new rules. And they're not just rules, they're LAW. You break them, you're breaking the law.

And you're much less likely to distance with friends, and much more likely to distance with strangers, so you're more at risk from going away with your friends.

From the GOV website: From Monday 14 September, when meeting friends and family you do not live with you must not meet in a group of more than 6, indoors or outdoors.

From 14 September - when the new rules apply - it will be against the law to meet people you do not live with in a group larger than 6 (unless you are meeting as a household or support bubble). The police will have the powers to enforce these legal limits, including to issue fines (fixed penalty notice) of £100, doubling for further breaches up to a maximum of £3,200.

Simple.

I am so very sick and tired of seeing that so many people cannot adhere to the law. It has been quite clearly spelt out for you this week.
Yes I understand your disappointment but surely you can see this is simply not going to work.
I wouldn't blame other people on the campsite to be annoyed with you, the campsite owner should not be allowing this. Then when your children go back to school they tell their mates and it is obvious that you all broke the law. Pubs are being told they will face fines for not trying to police this new law. You just need to face facts that you cannot now go. Yes it's disappointing but it's not the end of the World either.
What would happen in the future if society just decided to adhere to bits of the law that they wanted to and broke all the other bits that they didn't fancy? Yes I think the new rules have not really been thought through thoroughly but by God I wish people would just adhere to them for what hopefully is a brief moment in your life.

Yeah I'd go, you're not all sharing the same indoor space. You'd only be seeing them all outdoors anyway. I see more people at work or in the pub, what's the difference?

Total facepalm at previous post.

For the billionth time, the rule of 5 applies to outdoors as well as indoors

*Rule of 6

@FrolickingLemon

Total facepalm at previous post.

For the billionth time, the rule of 5 applies to outdoors as well as indoors

Even so... I'm allowed to work in a role where I'm exposed to around 50 different people all day, indoors, no distancing. But not allowed to meet 10 friends outdoors distanced? Nope, not having it.