Paid isolation after a holiday?

[itsgettingweird]

I just find it really hard to equate the thinking in this.

If you can afford 2/3k for a holiday knowing the restrictions and quarantine were a possibility you chose to take the risk.

I don't buy people weren't aware they would have to quarantine on return because their country was green on departure.

Obviously for some it really isn't an issue because they are self employed or can and do WFH.

Where have these people been?

My concern lies with the families who are working zero hours contract on NMW jobs who will have to isolate and need the income just for a roof and food and can only dream of having a holiday?

Just wondered what others thoughts were on this?

I feel very sorry for those who book their holidays well in advance.

The possibility that quarantine might be imposed has been clear right from the lifting of restriction to those countries on the exempt list. So people who booked then knew that it was possible they might have to quarantine on arrival at destination or on return to UK.

People who can 'only dream of having a holiday' are essentially unaffected, unless they need to go abroad for compassionate reasons.

You don't need to go abroad to have a holiday, and British resorts are seeing huge increases in visitor number, so lots of people are voting with their feet. Plus of course the uncounted number who are staycationing.

I'm really surprised about France being added. This could single handedly stop schools reopening. Teachers (in my LA at least) have been told that if a holiday was booked before quarantine restrictions were known, they will be able to wfh for the quarantine period goes over the start of term, or paid leave if not possible to wfh.

Having seen other plans scuppered, lots of teachers have booked France since the start of the holidays, plus camping in France seems to be a popular holiday for teachers in a usual year.

It puzzles me that this issue is important enough to risk schools not fully reopening but not important enough to monitor or enforce properly.

But I am thinking more along the lines that people who can't even afford a holiday are more likely to be affected by quarantine and no lay than those who have gone away.

If you've saved to travel you have some disposable income over your monthly income. You aren't struggling to pay rent and food.

I was due to go away next week. I would have returned too late for term to start as would have had to quarantine.

I save hard for my holiday it isn't easy.

Losing money to isolate would have been hard but I could have used CC if needs be for food and then that disposable income I scrape for the holiday would have been used to pay that off and would have been at the expense of a holiday next year.

I just think this outcry of "we didn't know" is so entitled.
The pandemic didn't disappear just because someone wanted a holiday.

Mine was cancelled so I'll at least get a refund at some point!

But I am thinking more along the lines that people who can't even afford a holiday are more likely to be affected by quarantine and no lay than those who have gone away

But if people can't afford a foreign holiday so haven't been away, how are they going to be affected by a quarantine that they don't have to do because they haven't left the country . They just carry on as normal surely? Might even benefit by picking up extra shifts if a colleague has been away and now needs to quarantine?

Everyone knew it was a risk to book over the summer. Only a tiny proportion of those who are currently abroad had booked it fully before February when it was clear what was happening.

I know several who are just back from Spain and I don't think any have self-isolated as is intended via the rules. I suspect it'll be the same for most coming from France.

I would love them to be fined for not self-isolating but know that statistically they won't.

I have sympathies for those who would have lost the cost of the holiday if they didn't go but this isn't a usual situation, the risk of quarantine was high and anyone abraod should be well aware of this.

I absolutely do not support anyone isolating getting sick pay.

Go on holiday in the middle of a pandemic, well that's a choice.

@BarbaraofSeville

But I am thinking more along the lines that people who can't even afford a holiday are more likely to be affected by quarantine and no lay than those who have gone away

But if people can't afford a foreign holiday so haven't been away, how are they going to be affected by a quarantine that they don't have to do because they haven't left the country . They just carry on as normal surely? Might even benefit by picking up extra shifts if a colleague has been away and now needs to quarantine?

Because if you work and have to self isolate due to a case you've been in contact with you don't get paid.

That's my point. You take a holiday knowing quarantine is a risk you make an active choice.

You are going to work and can't afford a holiday and rely on work for everyday expenses and still struggle - self isolation is t a choice or something you could have chosen to avoid.

Everyone knew this was a possibility. Someone on the bbc was complaining they hadn't been given time to make an informed choice. Err you've had 5 months to decide what to do. My holiday was cancelled in March. It was booked last year. I went to Cornwall instead. My friend went to France last week knowing this would happen and that they can quarantine. If he couldn't he'd have cancelled.

Katy Bell from TUc was on itv this morning saying people should be laid because government is forcing the quarantine on them.

Well they chose to go to France. The possibility quarantine on return wasn't exactly an unknown.

It was a unknown if there would definitely be a quarantine but the choice was yours whether to take the risk or not!

My staff can all work from home, and have been throughout, and though we're partially reopening the office, we have guaranteed that staff can isolate after return without penalty.

But I have MASSIVE side eye for the member of staff who has taken every inch of flexibility offered as a country mile, and then asked to be let off performing a duty that required him to leave home BEFORE his holiday.

I got his reasoning - he didn't want to be put in isolation by track and trace. But as an employer who have tried to do our very best by our staff during this situation, I do get sick of some of the rhetoric directed at managers.

We're human too, and weirdly enough none of us have experience of managing a company and a team through a global crisis. It's stressful and at times thankless.

I thin kit depends - if you booked your holiday last October to Spain, it wasn't cancelled and you'd have lost £££ if you chose not to go, you got on the plane and 2 days later quarantine was brought in, then fair enough. I can see why you would want or even expect to be paid to quarantine.

If you booked in June, knowing we were still in a pandemic and you choose to go because you can't get your money back. Then I have no sympathy for you.

People still knew going would mean possible isolation.

It's the people acting like they didn't know it would happen.

Yes. It's shit for those who booked a year ago to have this situation.
But also if you book a holiday you have the funds or resources (or you do if your sensible) to pay for any eventualities if it goes wrong. Eg paying for a dr before undesirable pays back.

And on the whole if you have disposable income to pay for a holiday you have disposable income to cover costs of isolating.

It's not simple and I will affect people - there's no denying that.

But it's peoples entitlement that they should be paid when they knew the risks and claiming it's because they "didn't know France would go into quarantine when I was away".

Well no, the exact date wasn't known. But the risk it could happen was.

No, quarantine shouldn’t be paid. Going abroad is a choice. The date it was booked doesn’t matter as it’s still a choice to travel rather than not go.

Having to self isolate because of an outbreak at work should be paid. Having to self isolate as a pub you went to had an outbreak, not sure why employers should have to pay for that.

Good point about outbreak at work.

But that would genuinely be sick pay? Because you are too sick to go to work.

I'm too sick to come to work because I have just spent 2 weeks in France on a beach and have to quarantine doesn't quite have the same time tonight

The problem with NOT paying though is that people can't afford to lose wages and so will be dishonest (such as in the case of the pub). They may even pretend they didn't go to Spain, last minutes change of plans, decided just to stay at home. Etc.

Not paying places everyone at risk.

@Trashtara

The problem with NOT paying though is that people can't afford to lose wages and so will be dishonest (such as in the case of the pub). They may even pretend they didn't go to Spain, last minutes change of plans, decided just to stay at home. Etc.

Not paying places everyone at risk.

I agree with the principle of what you're saying.

But loads more people would have made the decision to go if they got paid.

Lying people for having the luxury of the holiday in the midst of a recession and pandemic just isn't something I can support. These travellers knew the risk.

They decided for them it was worth it.

That has to be at their own cost and not the cost of the tax payer.

If you choose to go on any holiday anywhere in the middle of a pandemic it is a risk. As an adult you are responsible for deciding if the risk is worth it.
We cancelled our holiday to France as we didn't feel comfortable in travelling & adding to the problem.
I am sure for those worried about having to quarantine, they knew the risks and there'd

Oops posted too soon
Knew the risks so they now have to take the consequences

People won't necessarily be honest though and either go back to work or lie about being on holiday.

I agree with you, but I'm curious as to where employers do draw a line.

If I choose to go to a restaurant, or a hair salon, or a garden centre that then has a positive outbreak, should I be paid to self isolate?

@HandsOffMyRights

People won't necessarily be honest though and either go back to work or lie about being on holiday.

I agree with you, but I'm curious as to where employers do draw a line.

If I choose to go to a restaurant, or a hair salon, or a garden centre that then has a positive outbreak, should I be paid to self isolate?

I do think in this case there should be a national system rather than the "leave it up to employers"

And I certainly think any isolation because someone at work has it should be full pay.

I just have an issue with the people who shout "they should have told us - now they should pay us"

Unless they are travelling from a different planet to their holiday they do know there's a pandemic

@itsgettingweird

I just find it really hard to equate the thinking in this.

If you can afford 2/3k for a holiday knowing the restrictions and quarantine were a possibility you chose to take the risk.

I don't buy people weren't aware they would have to quarantine on return because their country was green on departure.

Obviously for some it really isn't an issue because they are self employed or can and do WFH.

Where have these people been?

My concern lies with the families who are working zero hours contract on NMW jobs who will have to isolate and need the income just for a roof and food and can only dream of having a holiday?

Just wondered what others thoughts were on this?

Even those on nmw have opted to leave the country in the midst of a pandemic, so moninhsve no sympathy and do not think.they should be paid to quarantine. However should be subjected to spot checks and police action for breaching.

Oh yeah solo I agree those on NMW have left. I know some with 2 adults earning this and low outgoings do manage to find the some cash.

My point was that people who choose to spend disposable income on holidays knowing the risks shouldn't expect to be paid for that quarantine and there sure people who can't even afford to go on holiday and can barely cover their going's and it's those people I'm more concerned about - because they could have to isolate through no fault of their own. (Eg someone sends an ill child into school/visits supermarket with symptoms)

I was just very frustrated with the language this morning from the woman campaigning for paid isolation leave that this was also no choice - it was government enforced. When the choice to go away was entirely theirs.

People have to weigh up the cost benefit of travelling abroad for their personal circumstances. Then they need to live with the consequences. No I don’t think that the government should pay. Enough is enough.

You've summed up the point I was trying to make better than I could!