Can anyone help me to understand what is going on with my 5 year old DD?

[Icantrememebrtheartist]

My DD was described as a high needs baby, a terrible sleeper who needs minimal sleep and is still the same. She's always demanded a high level of interaction and wouldn't play on her own until she was four. She's constantly on the move and needs constant stimulation.

She goes to nursery two days a week and is doing really well there, socialises and has made friends, has good relationships with the staff etc, all good feedback.

At home she has two younger siblings, plays brilliantly with both, extremely loving towards them and has wonderful close relationships, again all good. Both DH and I are very hands on parents (I'm a SAHM at the mo), we do lots of fun stuff at home and days out and try to give all three 1-1 time.

I've always wondered if she has ADHD or something similar. I've spoken to my GP several times and she has refused a CAMHS referral because she thinks ADHD is an over used diagnosis and she was in fact diagnosed with it herself and obviously has gone on to do well so she doesn't like children being labelled with something that may be detrimental. I understand and respect her opinion but I feel I need help.

Here is my problem. Discipline. She simply takes no notice to the point I don't think its normal for a 5 year old. It doesn't feel like pushing boundaries. It doesn't matter whether it escalates to the point I've shouted, I don't get any response and she doesn't do what she's been asked and there's no remorse. Time outs don't work. Removing toys doesn't work. Today I told her to leave her sibling alone because sibling was tired and grumpy, she took no notice and carried on. I told her repeatedly to leave her alone. I got down to her level and told her again and explained why. Whilst telling her she's continuing to call sibling over so completely ignoring me. I've told her again, asked if she can hear me and she's replied 'blah blah blah' and carried on. I've moved her away, she's come back, this has gone on and on and Ive ended up shouting at her. Eventually I've asked her if being told off makes her feel sad or happy. She said 'It doesn't make me feel sad or happy, just makes me want to hurt you'.

I feel out of my depth. I can;t believe I can't get a grip on discipline with a 5 year old. Where do I go from here?

Are you not in UK? 5 years old go to school 5 days a week(in normal situation, and now it's summer holiday.) Going to nursery 2 days a week at 5 is not norm here.

@Illuyanka school isn’t compulsory until the term after a child’s 5th birthday so it’s possible they are U.K. Why does it matter anyway?

It sounds like you’ve tried lots of different behaviour tactics, but this may be the problem. Have you picked one approach and stuck with it for a significant period of time (around 6 months?).

Yes we are in Uk and we deferred until sept as she’s a summer baby and she wasn’t ready last year.

snail. I feel like I’ve tried everything. Perhaps I’ve jumped from one thing to another because nothing seems to have any effect. She seems completely unfazed/untouched by any discipline.

Wow, the previous poster was supremely unhelpful! I can't offer any advice, unfortunately, but my son is also 5 and sounds very similar (right down to the behavior as a baby - I even took him in to the surgery when he was very little as everyone else seemed to have placid puddings that would stare at a mobile at 3 months old and I had this restless ball of energy that would kick and kick on the mat and cry if I wasn't entertaining him) and I have wondered if he may have some form of ADHD as the notion of him just sitting quietly somewhere even now is a joke - and we are not lax parents. You are not alone!

Oh thank you so much Bamboo. Three months old is when I started to notice the difference between DD and other babies. I would have to spend hours sitting in front or her waving toys at her otherwise she would just cry. I didn’t realise the extent her behaviour u til her younger siblings came along and both seem so easy in comparison.

Your Dd sounds similar to my Ds. If you are interested in a referral I would go back and see another gp. I accept that labelling dc isn't always helpful (as your gp suggests) but a diagnosis can open doors to support that otherwise may not be there. In one respect, you have nothing to lose by getting a referral.

My Ds has been diagnosed adhd and autism. The labelling doesn't make a difference to his needs but it does help when getting support and learning strategies to help him. It also helps me understand his needs more a d explain why he does things other dc May not do

It is not acceptable that the HP refuse to refer your daughter based on her own prejudices. Either ask another GP for a referral to CAMHS for a neurodevelopmental assessment or see if you can refer yourself directly to CAMHs. This is area dependent. Google 'Local offer ' with the name of your local council and you will be taken to a website which should detail all provision for children with special educational needs in your area. Somewhere on there should be information on how to access your local CAMHs.

I meant GP not HP. Also, speak to nursery and get their views . Have they needed to apply for additional funding to provide additional support for her ?

Speak to the nursery. See what they think. Also see what the teachers say when she starts school. Don't prompt them. See if they .emotion it to you first. Also, it very much sound like attention seeking behaviour. I know that you try hard to give them all one to one time, but I can only guess how hard it must be having three kids under the age of four. I would try to two pronged approach. Absolute consistency/following through, but really focus primarily on a reward chart. Praise good behaviour. Try to ignore some of the smaller annoying behaviours, but be clear on the main points of behaviour. Print off enough behavioural reward charts for three months. Also be prepared for behaviour to go downhill at home during the first term of starting school. That's perfectly normal due to tiredness etc.

The reason I asked was because my ds who was similar( hyper active/non sleeper), and has traits of asd/adhd was adviced by the nursery manager to attend 5 days a week to the nursery. It made huge difference to him before he started school.

Especially if she is having problem with discipline. Actually ds attended 5 days a week/6 hours a day. It did so good for him to be stimulated than staying home. I just wondered the child who need constant stimulation staying home with 2 younger siblings isn't a good idea, since I assumed younger ones needs more attention.

I have a child with autism and one with ADHD. We only got them diagnosed at 13 and 12 due to difficulties at school and needing support which wasn't happening without a label unfortunately! It isn't a problem, and they have great traits and abilities. My son was a very high need baby to put it mildly (the autistic one) and needed constant stimulation otherwise he was crting. He also has never slept much, even as a baby. My daughter with ADHD has never been deterred from doing what she wants to do with regards to consequences. She has never been bothered by punishment, she just has always been compelled to do whatever she feels she has to do! She is a bit better and a little (tiny bit!) more self-controlled now in some ways. I don't mean nasty behaviour at all. I have four children and have been around a lot of children, and she has always done things that have surprised me and that I couldn't see coming.

Glad to be of support! I have no diagnosis and so no help on that score but we never had any issues with my son from nursery, in fact we were told he was very bright and they hadn’t seen a child like it before (sure) but of course, that could have just been to make us put him into somewhere else to get rid of him if he was a pain!!

He does sound like your daughter, he is very affectionate, tells us he loves us, lots of hugs and kisses etc., so no worries on that score, just will not listen to anything we tell him not to do.

So we say for example (especially atm) - don’t rub your face with dirty hands, or don’t touch things when we’re out - but he does it two seconds later. Or we tell him to stop if he is wandering/running away and he just ignores us, and could be off into the road if we let him. We have never smacked him or anything like that, but do use the naughty corner idea - only once he is finished (after we do the whole getting onto his level, explaining and getting a sorry) he then sends himself back there, tells us he has to be there for a hundred years, and cries, so it all blows up to be so much more drama!!

No one ever seemed to cover this in the books - I read you were supposed to give your child the choice of X or Y, to eat, or play, or wear, to make them feel empowered - but if they just say No to everything, what do you do?! They didn’t have a chapter on that.

Sorry I should have said, the GP was useless. The school nurse did one of our referrals, the SendCo did the other.

DDs ENT Consultant raised the possibility that she may have adhd when she was younger but advised us that there are cross overs with her hearing problems so advised us to let them sort that as much as they could first and if things still persisted to get her referred. GP was useless, as was school, both of which knew we had reasons to think there was a possibility. This year her teacher made a lot of complaints regarding her behaviour that tallied in with adhd so we again asked school to refer. School said gp, gp said school. School tried to claim DD wasn't the problem they had said she was. In the end I phoned our local camhs for their advice and they told me I could refer her myself.

Covid has unfortunately delayed her qb test, but camhs at least took me seriously and in their sessions with dd so far can see why the consultant raised the possibility and why I was concerned. When camhs dealt with the school it was noted that she was displaying behaviours that could be associated with adhd but the senco believed she couldn't have it as she wasn't failing. Time is going to tell eventually on it but it's frustrating.

Look up your local camhs and call them to see if they take self referral.

We didn't get referrals from GP either, my ds was flagged up and referred to community paed at 2 year check up.

I agree that sometimes people can be too quick to want to pin a label on a child. My DS was very similar to your DD. What's her behaviour like at nursery? From what you've said she gets good feedback. Have they mentioned any issues? If it's just at home, it sounds to me like she's attention seeking (not uncommon with two younger siblings) and a bit bored and ready for school. I would wait and see how she settles in at school before worrying too much or pushing for an assessment. She's still very young.

The reason I asked was because my ds who was similar( hyper active/non sleeper), and has traits of asd/adhd was adviced by the nursery manager to attend 5 days a week to the nursery. It made huge difference to him before he started school

This. I know you have your reasons for deferring but nursery was the best thing for ours. Kept her stimulated where I just couldn’t. School and nursery also helped massively with the discipline.

Once at school I signed mine up for every activity going. Swimming, ballet, gymnastics, soccer, cycling- the more physically tired she was the better she could mentally concentrate. She turned out quite talented and before long was training 5 days a week, which sound a lot but did her the world of good- especially as it was following instructions and learning control.

Same her about activity. My ds attended activity everyday after school. One of them was martial arts and he choose to pursue it quite seriously soon. It was great for discipline, listening and concentration, as well as making physically tired so he would sleep better.

@VioletCharlotte are you an SEN parent? Because I am, and this “label” nonsense is so damaging.

Your DDs behaviour sounds very similar to my DS's except he's three. He was the same as yours as a baby and is the same now, I was hoping he might grow out of it but he hasn't and I'm not sure he will. ADHD has crossed my mind but nursery just seem to think it's his personality.

I also have a five year old (and so know lots of other five year olds) and I don't think this is all totally normal for that age, no. It could be that deferring has had an impact, sort of held her back? I'm not sure, but my five year old is quite responsive to discipline and is certainly affected by me get angry or having things taken away as a consequence (when appropriate obviously). Most of his peers are similar.

Sorry, I meant to add - maybe wait until she is at school? It might alter her behaviour being in a more structure environment where expectations of her are higher. If not, her teacher might have good suggestions or insight.

Sorry - a child just came in. What I mean by that is that your child will have the SEN regardless. Without a diagnosis they are denied adjustments which can make learning work better, and prone to low self-esteem and massive anxiety. They know they are different, regardless of what the GP says.

Try ‘positive parenting’. I’ve found it’s a game changer. And hang in there. 3 under 5 is no joke. Discipline slips as you’re just too damned busy! Before you know it you’re in a negative rut of power struggles and drama. Been there, it’s hellish. Fair play to you trying to improve the situation. Amy McReady is doing free webinars on positive parenting atm. Selling her course hard but whatever it’s a good intro to pp. good luck

This sounds so similar to my son. We started using the 123 Magic approach about four months ago and it's helped enormously.