Can anyone help me to understand what is going on with my 5 year old DD?

[Icantrememebrtheartist]

My DD was described as a high needs baby, a terrible sleeper who needs minimal sleep and is still the same. She's always demanded a high level of interaction and wouldn't play on her own until she was four. She's constantly on the move and needs constant stimulation.

She goes to nursery two days a week and is doing really well there, socialises and has made friends, has good relationships with the staff etc, all good feedback.

At home she has two younger siblings, plays brilliantly with both, extremely loving towards them and has wonderful close relationships, again all good. Both DH and I are very hands on parents (I'm a SAHM at the mo), we do lots of fun stuff at home and days out and try to give all three 1-1 time.

I've always wondered if she has ADHD or something similar. I've spoken to my GP several times and she has refused a CAMHS referral because she thinks ADHD is an over used diagnosis and she was in fact diagnosed with it herself and obviously has gone on to do well so she doesn't like children being labelled with something that may be detrimental. I understand and respect her opinion but I feel I need help.

Here is my problem. Discipline. She simply takes no notice to the point I don't think its normal for a 5 year old. It doesn't feel like pushing boundaries. It doesn't matter whether it escalates to the point I've shouted, I don't get any response and she doesn't do what she's been asked and there's no remorse. Time outs don't work. Removing toys doesn't work. Today I told her to leave her sibling alone because sibling was tired and grumpy, she took no notice and carried on. I told her repeatedly to leave her alone. I got down to her level and told her again and explained why. Whilst telling her she's continuing to call sibling over so completely ignoring me. I've told her again, asked if she can hear me and she's replied 'blah blah blah' and carried on. I've moved her away, she's come back, this has gone on and on and Ive ended up shouting at her. Eventually I've asked her if being told off makes her feel sad or happy. She said 'It doesn't make me feel sad or happy, just makes me want to hurt you'.

I feel out of my depth. I can;t believe I can't get a grip on discipline with a 5 year old. Where do I go from here?

My 5 year old can be like this, she was much better at school although they did have to do a "listening" intervention with her. She does listen, but it definitely feels like her main reason for doing so is to immediately do the opposite...

Lockdown and covid restrictions generally have been a disaster for us, she needs physical challenges, just long walks help but are not enough!

I'd be tempted to see how she is with school and possibly some sports/dance type activities and go from there.

My DD (8) is the same. She was a dream baby, but at 18 months we joked the terrible twos started early and they never really left. Daughter doesn't respond to warnings or praise at all. She's not motivated by anything. She's behind at school. We are being supported by cahms/cyps who think she's autistic, but it's really hard on a day to day basis. She can be really cheeky and often tells to me shut up and get lost. She's been violent many times too. I consider myself and my husband to be incredibly loving and caring parents, but she has really pushed us to our limits at times. I've shouted, screamed, cried, carried her kicking and screaming, restrained her etc; nothing has an impact. It's horrendous at times.

i couldhave written this down to the csa start.
But mine are both like this. 5 just and 8.
When dc1 started school at 4 she still couldnt be trusted to stop at corners etc. I write on the school nursing form but it was completely ignored. Yr r went really badly. She was scratching or biting! Desite not doing that before. So it looked like she would be excluded.
Illness /tiredness/parties at the weekend all made it worse. So reception was miserable.
She got abit better in yr 1 only in trouble about twice. Yr3 now and been in trouble every year. As pp say it is not thinking consequences. It is im sure worse as she is younger in year (jun). She never slept constant bf and couldnt be put down.
Was all over the place as a toddler. Enjoys winding people up. Imo it is a mix of adhd/asd/pda. Making home schooling hard. Even getting out the house every day.
Dc2
Didnt sleep either also bf. Didnt sttn until 3.5yo and never really more than 9h which leaves her grumpy.
Deferred due to dc1 experience but also as very similar.
I get what you are saying about touching things. 1 of them touched the sanitary bin at the zoo.

Dc1 had issues with ear infections multiple double burst drums at 3yo.
I did read adhd could be linked to low vit d. Which is possible for my 2 due to extended bf. And pale so lots of suntan lotion. (Also important re covid too.)
I am not looking forward to sept.

The other reason I left mine in nursery/school is there is evidence that if a child is on the Adhd/autism spectrum a social setting where they learn social rules and expectations can be beneficial.

You may find things improve when she’s at school and all her peers follow the rules. You can’t set the same boundaries at home.

As a girl she was ok in yr r ish when everyone was immature but by yr 2 she lost the girl friendships and moved to the boys as they are immature too.
Some things like asthma can look like adhd. There was a boy at rugbytots really not listening etc. He got asthma medication and was very different.

Sounds very much like my DD!

The lack of sleep and needing constant stimulation are connected IMO, they feel too tired to entertain themselves so need you to stimulate them. They are living off adrenaline and tend to go hyper towards the end of the day so are hard to get to sleep even though they are exhausted.

DD has improved massively since starting school. The first half term was awful as she got way overtired and slept even less. But then we imposed early bedtimes and some weekend naps (using the car if need be) and gradually she started sleeping more. We also stay with her and help her wind down at bedtime (I do slow breathing, fake yawns etc). Made a huge difference.

She is now 7, still hard work compared with many other children, still doesn’t quite accept that adults are in charge 🙄 and we have a lot of battles of will, but sooo much easier than she was.

See where she is by Jan/Feb next year. You may find school makes all the difference (but remember she will be very tired so early nights and help to get to sleep).

Honestly. I wouldn't worry just yet. The child is so young, not even at school yet. I don't know your personal circumstances, but with almost 5 months lockdown, my kids are almost feral, and discipline has all gone out the window a bit.
I'd leave for now and see how she gets on when she starts school. If no improvement in her behaviour you could review the situation in a few months.

Sounds similar to my 1st born. She's 7 now.

Poor sleeper, constant attention needed. Not content to just play - always needed stimulation.

Big melt downs - I mean epic- in public. I'm still haunted by one particular one.

Sensory issues re socks and tights especially. Tucking clothes in. Hair super tight in ponytail. Way the duvet was lined up.

Every morning getting ready for school was a battle ground and we sometimes walked on eggshells as we had to get out to work too.

Routine was huge.

Younger siblings very content.

Convinced she was on spectrum.

Shes 7 now and I cant remember last time there was an epic melt down - must be a year now I'm thinking about it. She still has some issues but a massive change this year - massive improvement - perhaps she's just grown up a bit. Never expected the change

If you suspect ADHD, it might be worth looking at some of the behaviour management strategies for children with ADHD. Additude is a great site as is understood.com. For neuro diverse children finding their motivation can be tricky because they often don't get 'compliance for the sake of compliance' . and are attracted by the new shiny thing they see. It is sometimes easier to work in terms of rewards rather than boundaries and consequences so' if you do x you can watch TV' rather than 'if you do Y you can't have screen time.' routine can often be helpful too plus somewhere safe to burn off energy safely when the world is too much. We found a trampoline fabulous for this.

A few thoughts from the sideline and without judgement

1. If she was brought up to expect entertainment at every small cry she will be way more demanding than others potentially.

1. at 5 attention needs to be drawn away by making it mandatory to do something else. Eg. Don't bother your sister, go and put the dinosaur to bed.

Saying go play is counterproductive. Always give specific task. The focus should be on the task not what she shouldn't be doing. I used to drink a lot of water as that was my go to task when I couldn't come up with anything else specific.

1. She might not respond because she knows that you'll leave her alone after a while.

Personal example (with teen): he knows that I will huff, puff, shout, but at the end of it rarely follow up - if it's insignificant. So it's more a choreography between us where we know the outcome, but still go through. (If it's important, then it's a different ballgame) With 3 kids not following through can be the most normal thing.

1. I would not jump to the conclusion of ADHD. The sentence of wanting to hurt you seems troubling, but at that age it is actually normal. The test would be in that situation to say: go ahead, kick me. Would she do it? Probably yes. And again it's normal. You'd cry and be obviously hurt. Maybe even need a plaster. Second time: would she do it again? If yes, then I would potentially start thinking of talking to a psychologist.

Hi OP,
I'll be honest I haven't read all the replies but the way you described your dd not responding to discipline and even down to what your dd says sounds exactly like my own dd but she is 10 . She has in the past got aggressive and violent mainly towards me and her sister but on rare occasions at school too.

You need to keep going back to the GP in my experience. I think I went 3-4 times. It was only when my dd had a full on meltdown on their floor (I mean rolling around screaming) that I was listened to. She had be totally fine in school until she got to about age 8-9. Unfortunately now her behaviour has spilled out into school and I believe it's because she is no longer masking there. We have our referral to camhs but we've been waiting a year and I'm told we have 18 months left to go.

Both dd and 1 are learning who to deal with her 'behaviour' and she is getting much better at regulating her outbursts and noticing when things are too much. She is awaiting an autism assessment.
She is a very sensitive young lady and takes everything to heart. She also struggles to switch off and sleep can be an issue (but can't wake her up in the morning!). She'd gladly spend hours on the trampoline!

Hi Op, my son sounds similar. He is a summer born baby too but started school last year. I had always thought he may have ADHD but its so hard to diagnose when they are little. The school picked up on his issues immediately though. They started bi-weekly assessments at the same time as putting in extra support for him in the classroom. Obviously all that went on hold due to Covid but will continue as soon as he returns in September. Are you happy with the school that she will be attending and trust that they will be able to support you both?

Hi Op, my son sounds similar. He is a summer born baby too but started school last year. I had always thought he may have ADHD but its so hard to diagnose when they are little. The school picked up on his issues immediately though. They started bi-weekly assessments at the same time as putting in extra support for him in the classroom. Obviously all that went on hold due to Covid but will continue as soon as he returns in September. Are you happy with the school that she will be attending and trust that they will be able to support you both?

@Illuyanka school isn’t compulsory until the term after a child’s 5th birthday so it’s possible they are U.K. Why does it matter anyway?

It matters if she is under stimulated...

Ask for a different GP. It's not a label, it's a diagnosis that will unlock doors that can provide help. Unsupported ADHD can lead to depression.

You can't just get given a diagnosis, they assess over time and after seeking input from professionals. They don't give a diagnosis light imo.

I've spoken to my GP several times and she has refused a CAMHS referral because she thinks ADHD is an over used diagnosis and she was in fact diagnosed with it herself and obviously has gone on to do well so she doesn't like children being labelled with something that may be detrimental
Sadly, some GPs, other medical professionals, teachers, SENCOs and everyone else you can think of whose opinion you'd value because of their professional status can display an astonishing amount of ignorance about ADHD, ADD, ASD, PDA etc.
Please see a different GP and take a list of your concerns and ask for an assessment for your DD.

Additional needs are medically recognised and diagnosed conditions, often carried out in more than one setting over a period of time by a team of qualified professionals usually but not exclusively Paed, OT, Ed Psych and SLT. Describing someone who has a valid medical diagnosis as having a "label" is demeaning and it trivialises that person's difficulties and often disabilities too.
"In order for a diagnosis to be made, a person will usually be assessed as having had persistent difficulties with social communication and social interaction and restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviours, activities or interests since early childhood, to the extent that these "limit and impair everyday functioning".
www.autism.org.uk/about/diagnosis/children.aspx
Whilst that example is for ASD, other AN also profoundly affect people's lives and anyone whose condition limits and impairs everyday functioning does not deserve to be described as "having a label"

Re discipline, or more to the point when the usual parenting strategies of reward/punishment have no effect, have a look at Ross Greene's website www.livesinthebalance.org/ for strategies that can help.

My dd (also 5) sounds a lot like yours, almost exactly like yours actually, including how she was as a baby to not playing on her own until around 4.
She has no siblings though.

I've said more times than I can count, that it wouldn't surprise me if she does have ADHD. Purely due to her energy and need to move constantly.

She has challenging behaviour, most days at the moment, shouting at us, falling out with us, some violence on occassions (thankfully not as frequent as the shouting and general attitude issues), mostly hitting or kicking doors or other things, but occasionally me, whenever not getting her own way.

I can't say I've ever felt I should take her to the GP because of it. I'm absolutely staggered by the amount of responses on this thread that have or would. Not in a judgy way, just genuine surprise.
I feel as though these are normal challenges of parenting and a small person developing. As much as we can have rational, interesting and even insightful conversations with them, they're still just very young and developing their understanding of the world, emotions and behaviours etc.

I don't understand why she (my dd) flips over such insignificant issues (toothbrushing for example is a key one that's occurring daily), so can't try to help you understand why yours does. I have felt like posting previously about mine tbh, so I understand why you'd ask, but really I don't think anyone can help us understand. I feel like dd doesn't even understand her own behaviours.

Do you try talking to her about it afterwards, as in a little later not in the heat of the situation? To try to help her understand why she behaves that way, and explain why you need her to do, or stop doing, whatever it was at the time?

I do, it doesn't get us far, but still important to try to help her/all of us develop that understanding.

I realise I'm no help, and if you truly feel she has issues you need professional help to manage then by all means advocate for her and your family by seeing another gp or investigating self referral or even a private assessment, but I think adhd is way over diagnosed in this country now for what seem to be normal phases of development for many children.

"but I think adhd is way over diagnosed in this country now for what seem to be normal phases of development for many children."

Do you actually think getting diagnosis is a piece of cake?

Senco not Sendco

I don't understand why she (my dd) flips over such insignificant issues (toothbrushing for example is a key one that's occurring daily)

It may be a sensory issue, see if anything in this booklet resonates.
www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/social-care/disabilities/docs/young-people/Making%20Sense%20of%20Sensory%20Behaviour.pdf?

Illuyanka

"Do you actually think getting diagnosis is a piece of cake?"

Apologies, I definitely worded that wrong. I have no idea about the stats for prevalence or diagnosed cases and I know, from personal experience, that diagnosis of any invisible disability is never easy. So no I don't think that.

I meant more that the term is (?over) used to describe/blame even low levels of challenging behaviour, I think making it worse for those that do genuinely suffer with the condition.
Sometimes challenging behaviours are just that. Hopefully a phase and nothing more.

But as long as the waits are for CAMHS and other MHSS, there are also some GP and other professionals that will refer to these services unnecessarily to be seen to be doing something, or just get the parents out of their office, or even in some cases, meet targets. And before I offend anyone else, this is not a sweeping generalisation, I'm talking about a minority not the majority. I'm part of the NHS and see first hand how underfunded and oversubscribed services are, and how overworked the vast majority of healthcare professionals are.

Really don't / didn't mean to cause any offence to anyone.

@BlankTimes thank you for that. Sensory issue hadn't even crossed my mind. Teeth never used to be an issue for her.

I will definitely have a read through of that.
Thanks!

Nursery for every day that you can !
One with outdoor space and energetic staff. It’s a game changer.

Do you actually think getting diagnosis is a piece of cake?

No.

I meant more that the term is (?over) used to describe/blame even low levels of challenging behaviour, I think making it worse for those that do genuinely suffer with the condition

I agree. It may be that parents are seeking diagnoses for behaviour that is “normal”.

Part is that diagnosis is so difficult because it is a spectrum. My own child several family members thought I needed to take her to the GP when she was simply a more energetic than average child. Once that energy was channelled into sport the “problem” behaviour resolved.

Possibly also linked to the lack of physical exercise and play kids get now.

As a child I also did a lot of exercise- i was doing 21 hours a week at 9. Interestingly I was labelled “lazy” as my down time was downtime, i read books and barely moved. My sister, who wasn’t as natural at sport as I was only did a couple of hours rec classes a week, yet she was the one my parents sought help for as she was “hyperactive” and couldn’t sit still.

There’s also quite a lot of pushback against organised sport- i met quite a few people who when they found out pre-school dd was doing roughly 3 hours of classes a week, told me I was pushy and they were going to wait until their child chose activities themselveS, rather than push them into it so young. Which is fine, but with kids not playing out on streets any more, it’s impossible to get a significant amount of activity.