What is an ‘invisible woman’?

[Goatinthegarden]

I don’t usually start threads on MN so I hope I’ve got this in the right channel.

I’m just wondering what the term invisible woman’ means. I see it posted on Mumsnet quite often and have taken it to mean that women become invisible to men after reaching a certain age. I guess what I’m wondering though is; is this a bad thing and what are the implications of being ‘invisible’?

The reason I ask, is that I was chatted up yesterday and I realised that it has been years since that has happened. Does that mean I have become an invisible woman? If so, I’m not bothered, I don’t want to be chatted up. I’m 34, I’m happy and confident in myself, more so that I was in my twenties when receiving male attention was more common...I was also single so was probably actively seeking male attention back then IYSWIM.

Or have I missed the point and is being an invisible women something more than this?

Surprisingly enough it has nothing to do with being 'chatted up' OP.

amp.theguardian.com/books/2019/mar/11/invisible-women-exposing-data-bias-by-caroline-criado-perez-review

Invisible women tends to refer to all the little issues around us that show that the world was designed by men, for men.

Can't reach the shelves in a shop? Can't reach the shelves in your wardrobe at home? Can't open the windows in your house without climbing up on something to reach them? Can't get the seatbelt on the car to sit on your shoulder, only your neck, no matter how much you adjust it? Can't operate your phone with one hand? Have to queue for ten minutes for a public toilet whilst your male partner is in and out in 30 seconds and then wonders why you take so long?

All those little things that just make like a little bit more difficult than it needs to be. Not malicious, not necessarily designed specifically to make life more difficult for women, but just design processes that failed to consider that women are different.

And much more serious stuff besides, such as failures in medical training that doesn't consider that symptoms for the same illness might differ between men and women. Failure to study the effects that hormones can have on the effectiveness and safety of drugs prescribed. Failure to prescribe pain relief to women when in similar circumstances it is accepted that men need pain relief.

Thanks. I’m a bit embarrassed I didn’t research more before asking. Just in the contexts that I had seen it used around here, I got the impression that it meant something along the lines of younger attractive women were treated more favourably.

I was aware of issues, such as those that you mention @isabellerossignol, I just didn’t realise that was what the phrase ‘invisible women’ described.

Fat, old, ugly, I am definitely an invisible woman (even if it has other meanings). Men literally look right through me as if I don't exist. And these are not strangers. People I work with every day.

Well, I think it is true that younger more attractive women are generally treated more favourably. I certainly didn't realise the extent of sexism around me until I became older, because being young and attractive provides some protection from it in some ways.

There is also the idea that once you are middle aged you become invisible to certain men. For example I used to hate going for a run on a Thursday when I knew the bin men would be about. Now I know they will ignore me.

But yes. The term mainly refers to all the little things where women are simply not considered because they are just a faulty version of men. Men are the default.

A woman with no power. No important job, no huge income, not well connected. Not listened to, not heard.

I'm in this category I guess. I have my job and my house and my kids and that's what's important, but being friends with me will not bring anybody any social cachet! It won't validate anybody or open any doors for them.

Nobody fears that getting on the wrong side of me could be bad for them!

I'm reading Invisible Women at the moment! But I do think it had a previous meaning- once you've left the full flush of youth it's not so much that you're not considered a potential partner for straight men, although that's part of it, it's more you're seen as unimportant in society in general - you've had your kids (probably), you're "just" an unglamourous mum or grandmother, maybe a "karen" or person whose views are unimportant or out of touch. Probably spend your time doing the dull but essential work that keeps households going, even if you have a decent career.
Older men are likely to have progressed to have some sort of power, while this is still seen as less common in women so it's still a stupid trope.

Nb I don't think any of this applies at 34! But feel free to get angry about it!

I would highly recommend reading the book 'invisible women' it gives you a great understanding of what is meant by that term but be warned - it will make you angry!

To be fair OP, I have seen that term used for when women no longer get attention from men as well.

I cant say I have ever thought too much about either definitions but there's not twopence worth. In terms of design of things , I see the point now its pointed out to me apart from the seat belt one as there is an adjuster on mine so I can either adjust the seat height or the belt height. I do agree that women get treated differently by medics, but I wouldn't say it's always worse. Just anecdotally there seems to more focus on womens health than men. I have never understood though why anuthing related to periods and childbirth needs to be suffered through.

In terms of men, sure at 46 and 3 stone overweight I dont consider myself to be particularly attractive. Is it weight or age?probably both. I sometimes catch someone's eye and I know it happens a lot less than when I was young, but I also dont care. I remember once thinking to myself that it was good that men had stopped wolfwhistling women on the streets as that was common from when I was about 14. Then I walked down the road behind a young attractive colleague of mine and realised it does still happen, just not to me!

@Goatinthegarden I think becoming invisible can seem less devastating as you age. In my forties I think I had two lists in my head, ok, what can I enjoy regardless of other people, and what requires other people. I was developing more of an inner world I guess. I like listening to authors like Jean Shinoda Bolan, Carole S Pearson, Sharon Blackie, lots and lots more. Your own views on life become more important to you than what some bloke at work thinks. At fifty I guess I'm worthless to men as a woman, because to men, woman means young woman, but I feel more valuable as a person than I've ever felt. So it's possible to be invisible to others and yet feel that you finally hear and see yourself and that feels more significant that other people not seeing you.
You're only 34 but I think it's better to disconnect your identity from youth early on. That way you don't lose yourself suddenly in your forties.

I had thought it meant invisible to men and probably other women too, on here anyway.

@WinnieLowCo to become invisible, in the sense that you describe it, doesn’t bother me. I’m content in my life, my job role and my identity. I suppose I’m fortunate (and quite sheltered) in that I work in education with a group of men who are not at all misogynistic and treat me like an intellectual and valued equal. I appreciate not all women are lucky enough to work or operate in such circumstances.

@Molly500 I remember once thinking to myself that it was good that men had stopped wolfwhistling women on the streets as that was common from when I was about 14. Then I walked down the road behind a young attractive colleague of mine and realised it does still happen, just not to me!

I had this exact same conversation with a friend not so long ago! 😂

Well, I think it is true that younger more attractive womenaregenerally treated more favourably...

...until these men realise sex isn't coming out of the vending machine they inserted all those kindness tokens into - then the target-woman is treated much, much worse than the other women around her and sometimes hounded from her job. It's a lot like a man hitting and shaking a vending machine which failed to "vend". Plus some of the other women will turn on her too, sometimes just because they believe he's lovely and deserves to get what he wants and "who does she think she is".

This is why sexual harassment is only techinically illegal and why it can be so stressful for the young and "attractive" at work.

Post partum I was invisible to men both at work and on the street, and it made some things much more difficult but by god did I feel safer.

I see the point now its pointed out to me apart from the seat belt one as there is an adjuster on mine so I can either adjust the seat height or the belt height.

Every car that I have had for the past fifteen years has been adjustable, but of all those cars (about 6) only one of them was actually adjustable enough. The rest of them, no combination of raising the seat or lowering the seatbelt worked safely, because moving the seat too much meant that I couldn't safely reach the peddles.

I'm not even particularly short. I'm probably what you would call average height. I used to get really frustrated seeing my very very petite sister in law sitting in her car with her chest nearly touching the steering wheel, as it is obviously such a dangerous position to sit in. Then the penny dropped that she sits that way because if she doesn't, she can't reach the peddles.

I see the point now its pointed out to me apart from the seat belt one as there is an adjuster on mine so I can either adjust the seat height or the belt height

I can adjust the height of my seat and lower the height of my seat belt. It still cuts into my neck and I’m average height for a woman.

Also there's a lot going on in retirement villages which would suggest women don't become invisible to men as we age. We become invisible to creeps.

I work in education with a group of men who are not at all misogynistic and treat me like an intellectual and valued equal.

You're only 34. You're still firmly in 'fuckable' territory.

Have a close look at how those men treat (and talk about) older women colleagues.

This is so true. If an older woman makes one mistake and admits it, there could be a narrative of ''going dotty'' pulled out of nowhere. If an older man makes a mistake and admits it, he's big to admit it.

My colleagues aren't particularly sexist but I think it's assumed that you get less 'sharp' as you get older whereas that isn't an automatic assumption for the men.

A really good example of this...

In my old house, one day a load of builders rocked up and started work on the property next to ours, doing something which was structurally dangerous to our property. They laughed and blanked me when I confronted them. When an important man rocked up to tell them what they were doing must stop immediately...funnily enough, they listened.

So believable :-/

Who is your comment aimed at @WinnieLowCo

You! I can just picture it sadly. You tell them they are damaging your property and they laugh 🤔🙄
A man tells them to stop and they say "right, we'd better stop".
Depressing. But I have had so many experiences like this.

I had somebody come to draft up plans for a sl8ght reconfiguration of ground floor. He didnt listen and drew plans for what i had said "no, that i do not want".

Then his office were looking for payment and i refused.