Terrible CVs

[PymChurchBeach]

Disclaimer: I know times are hard and shitty right now and a lot of people are desperate for work so probably chucking out CVs left right and centre at anything and everything.

BUT. I have worked in HR for nearly a decade now and it has always been the same. The general standard of CVs is bloody awful. I'm recruiting for a mid level role at the moment and I have seen the following:

• people using little hearts and stars instead of bullet points
• massive glamour model style photographs taking up the whole first page of a CV
• people's dates of birth and marital statuses written up at the top. Just no!!!
• wacky, colourful borders and fonts. Comic sans. Enough said.

Also - this last one is possibly controversial but when women have had a break to look after DC, there really is no need to list all the skills gained as a SAHM - e.g. "excellent time management skills etc". You can just say you had time out to raise children. That's all you need to say. I'm not going to think any the worse of you for it.

I am desperate to implement application forms rather than have CVs and cover letters but my CEO is old fashioned and will not have it.

I often hire into my team and find feedback so tricky. I offer it if asked after interviews (not just applications). By that stage we've weeded out the dross and so the reasons for not hiring people are usually either:

• You were fine, but someone else was better (does that really help?) or

• You seemed a bit unfriendly/ had clearly lied on the CV / were an arrogant prick ect. I'm not going to give that feedback, even when it might be useful.

So I end up giving something really generic. It's the one part of the hiring process when I value using recruiters - I can give them the honest truth and leave them to give it diplomatically to the applicant.

My “in person” applicant was late teens/early 20s so no indirect discrimination due to being older and out of date in modern hiring practices. The job actually went to a woman in her mid 50s.

Pestering the receptionist to see the hiring manager is terrible advice I agree. I’ll probably come down because my receptionist isn’t paid to take that hassle but the chance of getting the job is zero.

I haven't read women's magazines in years but when I was in my early 20s, before Google, I used to read the careers advice in Cosmopolitan magazine, because I really didn't know where to get advice. It was choc full of that type of crap - turn up in person, be demanding etc. Always with a little snippet where Rebecca, 28, tells how she got her amazing job by just telling the interviewers that she wanted it more than any other applicant, and they were so impressed with her self belief that they hired her there and then. And Rachel, 25, was 'working on an account' (everyone in Cosmo worked on an account) when she saw a way that she could quadruple the sales and of course her boss was so impressed that he immediately promoted her and now she manages 300 staff in the New York office (because everyone in Cosmo also worked for companies that had a New York office ).

Wonder if women's magazines still churn out crap like that? Because I can't imagine that being good advice even 25 years ago.

I’ve seen plenty of advice to posters on mumsnet, who are struggling to find jobs, that goes along the lines of: print off your CV and take it along to every company you would like to work for, insist on speaking to the hiring manager when you are at reception and don’t let the receptionist fob you off. I’m not sure if this advice originates at the jobcentre too.

Unbelievably awful advice that would ensure I wouldn't hire them. Not only is just turning up annoying, but why anyone would follow advice to basically be rude to the receptionist where you are hoping to work is beyond me.

Another little tip for would be employees - watch how you treat the receptionist!

I always ask ours what she thought of the candidates. They'll be on their best behaviour with me but how they interact with those they think have no input into the hiring process gives an excellent insight into how they will fit ( or not) into the team.

it's rather ironic to complain that hiring managers are discriminating by age when they don't like seeing a DoB when the precise reason they don't want to see it is to avoid discrimination by age.

Yeah, the irony was kind of the point I was making.

WRT to touting your CV round potential employers in person - I’m reminded of a funny story, just to lighten the mood a bit here!

20+ years ago, I was working in a large branch of a major retail chain, let's call them Cool & Co, who were widely viewed as a fairly benevolent employer and consequently very popular with job hunters at that time. We used to get anything up to half a dozen people a week coming into the shop to drop off CVs, and even more arriving by post, all on spec. The company weren't explicitly opposed to this (I got my own job there by posting them a speculative CV) but sometimes the volume of it was just overwhelming, and they only tended to hire at certain times of the year, whereas the barrage of CVs was relentless.

Eventually our manager (who was a bit of a grumpy bastard tbh) said he just wouldn't accept any more, and if anyone came in with a CV we were to politely but firmly tell them there were no vacancies and we were sorry but we couldn't pass on their CV.

One day a woman came in with hers and tried to give it to me, so I gave her this spiel but she wouldn't take no for an answer. She'd just moved to this country and maybe the culture where she was from is different, idk, but she was very pushy and kept telling me how much she wanted to work there, how great she'd be at the job etc etc. I kept repeating I was sorry but there were no vacancies.

Clearly she didn't believe me and asked to speak to the manager. Knowing he'd be furious, I said no, he never spoke directly with people who dropped off CVs, again I was sorry etc. Again she persisted, and on and on it went. Eventually, in despair because she wouldn't leave, I called down to him and grovellingly asked him to come up and talk to her, which he did - essentially telling her the same as I'd told her, after which she finally went away. I on the other hand got a telling off because presumably I was supposed to have frogmarched her out of the store or something!

Fast forward to the next morning, and I get paged in work that there's a phone call for me, by name. On the line is a woman whom I immediately recognised, by her very distinctive accent, as being my persistent job hunter from the day before - but I knew I'd never told her my name, nor had she heard me call the manager, so she couldn't have learned it that way. She launches into her spiel again about how desperate she is to work for the company, blah blah, clearly with no idea that she's speaking to the same person as the day before.

Me (very confused and annoyed by this stage): Excuse me, sorry, but how did you get my name?

Her: Oh, I've just moved in as a lodger with F [a friend of mine] and I was telling her that I really wanted to work for Cool & Co, so she mentioned that she had a friend who worked there and that maybe if I gave you a call, you could give me some pointers on how to get a job there or something.

Me: Oh really?

Her: Yeah, the thing is you see, I went in there yesterday and the woman I spoke to was really unhelpful and just tried to fob me off. She kept saying there were no jobs but I know that's just what they SAY, so I was hoping that if I had a contact, like you, you could maybe put in a word for me?

Me (with some relish): Actually, the person you spoke to yesterday was ME, and I’m sorry to tell you that there really ARE no jobs! Now please don't call me again!

So, I don't do THAT at least. 🤷‍♀️

@PaulinePetrovaPosey You were fine, but someone else was better (does that really help?)

That can help and has recently helped me when I didn't get a job I was interviewed for (turns out by a narrow margin); the key though was that I was given detailed feedback along with the ways I could make the improvements needed to raise my game enough to very hopefully be successful should a similar opportunity arise. It was also good and encouraging for me to know that I wasn't far off what was needed rather than having completely missed the mark in terms of ambition and knowledge. So yes, it can help but I think only when more detailed feedback can be given to contextualise it - I appreciate that I was very fortunate to have been given this as some people simply don't have the time.

Another little tip for would be employees - watch how you treat the receptionist!

Excellent advice, and that's how an acquaintance of mine came unstuck
An arrogant sod anyway, he was used to dealing with top decision makers and had little time for lesser beings, so on arriving for a meeting with some CEO he barked at the lady searching out some file in the outer office and made it clear how valuable his time was

The lady was, of course, the CEO

See also: people who put two spaces after a full stop because they were told to in typing class in 1989. Have you not noticed than nothing professionally produced ever, ever looks like that and wondered if it might be time to revisit that advice?!

That isn't as widespread as you may think. The firm I work for insists on double spaces after full stops and, from seeing our competitors house style requirements, we're not alone.

@PymChurchBeach- but dates for education are relevant if grades for gcses and a levels are relevant. In some cases the ceiling is A, in some cases it is A*. do employers care about gcses alevels or does it not matter unless you are just out of school?

I did a quick straw poll at work; out of the five of us on shift, only one knew it was ‘wrong’ to put your DoB on a CV and he left school within the last ten years. The rest of us said AFAWK it was usual practice and had never read/been told otherwise. In fact, one colleague said one potential employer got a bit annoyed at him NOT putting it as they called him for interview then realised they couldn’t give him the job as he was still at school and their policy was not to employ for weekday evenings until you had left high school (he had just stated that he was 16).

Lots of people who haven’t been in professional roles struggle as well (I know I do). The majority of jobs (bar one) that I’ve had have been ‘turn up and follow these rules’ type roles. No decision making powers, no authority, no clue what the budget IS; let alone manage it, no “bringing in xx project on time and under budget.” I always used to put my hobbies/interest on in a kind of desperate bid to try and make myself memorable from the 1000s of other admin assistants out there.

I too, have been told to try face-to-face asking for jobs and handing in CVs (I’m always polite and would never demand to see someone). I agree with pp with the Cosmo example, LinkedIn can be the same; I’ve seen many people post ‘inspirational’ stories about how they were rejected, then someone saw something about them, they had the type of conversation that only happens in a film and voila! They are hired. It gives a lot of false hope. They did it in the TV show ‘Flack’ with the main characters sister; she went for an interview after being a SAHM with little/no experience, gave an aggressively sarcastic answer about organising birthday parties, school runs and lunches and hey! She’s hired! I mean, it was a funny scene and good TV but in reality she’d have been turned down flat.

I’ve only had a couple of roles where I’ve been in the position of changing processes/systems but it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be able to, just that where I’ve worked hasn’t allowed it. Most places I’ve worked have had preferred suppliers for things, such as stationary and managers have been clear that you aren’t allowed to buy them from another company, unless it’s an emergency or your usual supplier does not stock whatever it is.

I left school in 1985 with CSE equivalent O levels. Every job wants GCSE grades so I have to say I have GCSE's.
Otherwise I'm sure I would be dismissed as being too old!

Also I have completely dropped from my CV the jobs I had back then.
I'm sure nobody wants to know I worked in a clothing factory for 2 years straight from school.

Hiring managers say they don't discriminate based on age but in my experience, they do.

but dates for education are relevant if grades for gcses and a levels are relevant. In some cases the ceiling is A, in some cases it is A. do employers care about gcses alevels or does it not matter unless you are just out of school?*
In my experience, after a first job academic awards below degree level are irrelevant, except some places want to see English and maths.

@isabellerossignol

I haven't read women's magazines in years but when I was in my early 20s, before Google, I used to read the careers advice in Cosmopolitan magazine, because I really didn't know where to get advice. It was choc full of that type of crap - turn up in person, be demanding etc. Always with a little snippet where Rebecca, 28, tells how she got her amazing job by just telling the interviewers that she wanted it more than any other applicant, and they were so impressed with her self belief that they hired her there and then. And Rachel, 25, was 'working on an account' (everyone in Cosmo worked on an account) when she saw a way that she could quadruple the sales and of course her boss was so impressed that he immediately promoted her and now she manages 300 staff in the New York office (because everyone in Cosmo also worked for companies that had a New York office ).

Wonder if women's magazines still churn out crap like that? Because I can't imagine that being good advice even 25 years ago.

Oh god, the "gumption" advice, otherwise known as the bad advice that parents who haven't jobhunted since the 1980s love to give.

Just to be clear, there can be different norms for manual and/or low-skilled jobs where just walking in/handing a physical CV can still be OK/expected. But for large scale retail it all long ago became online applications, and harassing admin staff who tell you they aren't accepting applications in person will merely get you escorted off the premises and banned for life. Most places want you to apply online and write a straightforward application showing how you have the work-relevant skills they need and FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS given in the ad. Gumption will not make you friends.

I also used to ask the receptionist if I ever had any concerns about a candidate, including when I did executive assessment professionally. Our receptionist and office manager was a very savvy and intelligent woman who would actively bring me feedback if a candidate was arrogant, rude or strange with her.

I've known for some time that the law says you can't discriminate against older employees (or younger ones) so taking dob off the CV makes sense, but if you do have to apply for a job with a CV rather than an application form, how do you get round this age point? We're always hearing that recruiters want a full CV with all dates accounted for, but as soon as you put the dates on it's blindingly obvious roughly how old the applicant is. Same with application forms that ask for every single job and qualification to be listed with dates.

Even just saying you have O levels or CSEs rather than GCSEs would do it.

Any tips for older applicants from recruiters?

This is a slight tangent I know, since the discussion is about CVs. But I'm in N Ireland and everything is application forms here, and even though it's almost 30 years since I took GCSEs, I still have to list them on every application form (some even specify that you have to list any that you failed as well) and often you have to name the examining body too. I've never had a job where I didn't have to produce the certificates for my GCSEs, a levels and degree before being allowed to start work. Also, if you're going for an interview with a very large employer or in the public sector, you can be an absolute arsehole to whoever greets you when you come for interview and it wouldn't matter because everything has to be so strictly based on what is said in the interview room. There is a good reason for that, so that everything can be proven to comply with fair employment legislation and no one outside of the recruitment panel can be allowed to influence the decision, but that obviously comes with downsides as well.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I've known for some time that the law says you can't discriminate against older employees (or younger ones) so taking dob off the CV makes sense, but if you do have to apply for a job with a CV rather than an application form, how do you get round this age point? We're always hearing that recruiters want a full CV with all dates accounted for, but as soon as you put the dates on it's blindingly obvious roughly how old the applicant is. Same with application forms that ask for every single job and qualification to be listed with dates.

Even just saying you have O levels or CSEs rather than GCSEs would do it.

Any tips for older applicants from recruiters?

I don't think recruiters actually do want accurate dates for qualifications. For jobs, yes, because they are looking out for gaps that night signify sacked/in prison/lying about what you did. For qualifications, unless there's a reason you need up to date certification in something, no 1 curr.

My advice would be:

• list the last 15 years of working history max, no employer cares what you were doing 20 years ago for a job right now
• list your highest level of qualification only unless the job spec requires something specific which is lower; err on the side of leaving out irrelevant qualifications
• don't list the date of qualifications gained if it was more than a few years ago; I care that you have X degree, but I don't really care if you earned it in 2010 or 1998.

Employers are fairly unlikely to care much about the detail of what O levels you got long ago - hopefully you've been doing more relevant things with yourself since - so you could leave them out if you have other relevant quals or simply write something like "5 good O-levels including English and Maths". Basic levels of competence in English and Maths are what are most likely to be relevant to an employer.

A caveat that this is CV advice; some jobs which do thorough security checking require you to fill out a very comprehensive history with every qualification and Saturday job you've ever had, in which case you should follow the instructions and do as asked. I've never used that approach so I can't tell you how they guard against bias in that form.

What's the best way to approach those vague job adverts with ambigious job titles that give very little detail on job descriptions and person specification (not to mention no location or hours of work!)? I mean I get that you should always tailor your CV and application to what you are applying for but what if there is little to tailor to?

Or are these just a way for companies to collect CVs and are a waste of time responding to?

It is interesting to read the opinions on including hobbies! I don’t include it in my CV and would t expect it to be included from an applicant. I agree it encourages bias towards people who have opportunities for hobbies - pre kids I would have said I have hobbies, but now I have two small children and I don’t think I do anything that you’d regard as a hobby... when the kids are asleep I am doing a professional qualification. I could put things like ‘arts and crafts’ or ‘visiting places with great playgrounds’... just going off my own life, I think there would probably be a gender divide over what the hobbies are and a huge divide over opportunity - eg if I was a single parent I would have even less time for myself, so where are you supposed to fit a hobby in? This is all at the difficult point in recruitment where assessing ‘will they work well and contribute to the work we need to do?’ meets ‘do I like them and think I will get on with them?’

After putting in effort to implement anti-bias measures in the recruitment process/application form, I have put in labels to explain why we don’t need dates. All the advice to include notes about disability and being a SAHM - I can appreciate the circumstances when you might need or want to include this info but from my point of view, I’ve been putting in all this anti bias stuff so we don’t collect this information on you and then you include it in the text - you will be disclosing information that other candidates haven’t. I do get the idea that disclosing disability upfront weeds put employers who are not going to support you though, although you can’t tell if it was discrimination or if they had 500 great applicants!

@SnuggyBuggy

What's the best way to approach those vague job adverts with ambigious job titles that give very little detail on job descriptions and person specification (not to mention no location or hours of work!)? I mean I get that you should always tailor your CV and application to what you are applying for but what if there is little to tailor to?

Or are these just a way for companies to collect CVs and are a waste of time responding to?

My assumption is that these are from unscrupulous recruitment agencies and there are no jobs behind them. More likely to be a data harvesting exercise aimed at getting details, like the name of a hiring manager from your references, so they can contact them direct and find out if they are hiring.

To be fair they were useful for filling that application quota you got from the jobcentre

I know it's a counsel of perfection in these difficult times, but if I can't make sense of a job advert I wouldn't bother applying, as it might be a sign of problems to come with lack of clarity around duties/expectations, quite apart from not having a clue whether I could do the job or not and therefore whether it's a waste of time and a risk of a nasty knock to confidence to apply and be rejected.

@TeddyGizmo I have O levels. I'm under 35. It confuses people sometimes, but it's true. (O levels are still available internationally, or as a private candidate in the UK.)

I do worry sometimes that recruiters might assume my CV has a massive gap in it when in reality I hadn't finished education though. It's reassuring to hear advice about only putting the last 15 years of work experience on it for that reason!

Re some of the comments here....I was job hunting a couple of times around age 40. I had a BA, PhD, 20 years job experience.

Went to a recruitment fair and a local CV advice company was going free consultations....they told me I should put hobbies on my CV . I didn't.

My CV listed A levels and O levels in brief, with no grades. One company I applied to came back to me asking for my A Level grades, which were then obviously too poor for me to get an interview, about 25 years later!

Languages and other interests sometimes disclose ethnicity as well. Looking at graduate cvs I often see something like “Cantonese: native, English: native, French: conversational” or “Treasurer of University Hindu society”

Obviously it’s possible that both those people could be white but that’s not the most likely option. Whether that’s a problem is an open question. As it happens my company doesn’t remove names from cvs so any other signifiers are secondary.