Terrible CVs

[PymChurchBeach]

Disclaimer: I know times are hard and shitty right now and a lot of people are desperate for work so probably chucking out CVs left right and centre at anything and everything.

BUT. I have worked in HR for nearly a decade now and it has always been the same. The general standard of CVs is bloody awful. I'm recruiting for a mid level role at the moment and I have seen the following:

• people using little hearts and stars instead of bullet points
• massive glamour model style photographs taking up the whole first page of a CV
• people's dates of birth and marital statuses written up at the top. Just no!!!
• wacky, colourful borders and fonts. Comic sans. Enough said.

Also - this last one is possibly controversial but when women have had a break to look after DC, there really is no need to list all the skills gained as a SAHM - e.g. "excellent time management skills etc". You can just say you had time out to raise children. That's all you need to say. I'm not going to think any the worse of you for it.

I am desperate to implement application forms rather than have CVs and cover letters but my CEO is old fashioned and will not have it.

@merryhouse, the other thing you could think about if you're open to retraining is an apprenticeship. The wage is shit at first, but it's a wage. You'd get good applied training and, if you are good and work hard, very likely a "proper" job at the end of it. I'm doing one now, on top of my job as an experienced hire (I'm 36) and I'm far from the oldest on the programme.

@PymChurchBeach

My "wishlist" in a CV, for those asking:

• Plain, black, sensibly sized font - no colour, no wacky font (arial, calibri, times new roman etc all fine)
• you should not be putting anything at all on your CV that comes under protected characteristics. No marital status, no DOB, no sex, no ethnicity, no disability, no sexuality. The exception to this is if you're applying for a role which is using an exemption to the equalities act (e.g. you're applying for a role at a women's refuge which means you need to be female). And many companies will use positive action to guarantee an interview to a disabled or BAME candidate if they meet all the essential criteria, but that will be stated somewhere if so. If it isn't, don't put it in.
• Clear headings.
• In terms of contact info - I want your name, your email address and your contact telephone number. I don't need an address.
• Employment history (paid and voluntary) starting with the most recent and including any gaps - but you don't need to go into detail. Saying 2014-17: break to raise children/sabbatical to go travelling is totally fine. Don't include the saturday job you had at M&S in 1986. Employment history should include a brief description of your duties and skills gained in your most recent and relevant roles.
• Education history and qualifications starting with the most recent, but you don't need to list all your GCSEs/O levels etc. Saying you have X number of GCSEs at grades X-X, including English and Maths is fine.
• Work related qualifications, if any
• A section with any skills not covered by your employment history, like a second language or specific software packages etc.
• I don't mind either way if applicants do hobbies and interests as long as it is only a sentence or two at most (unless it is of direct relevance to the role applied for).
• Number your pages. Proofread! Make sure the formatting is correct and everything is lined up.

Morning. Thank you , this has helped a lot. I'm writing my first cv in 15 years 😬 It's for my nmc portfolio. We have been told it can only be 2 A4 sheets of paper , trying to condense my nhs career into this is proving difficult. But following your advice I think I can now do it!

Do you put the year of education ? Like I was at xxxx high school 89- 94?

@drinkingwineoutofamug

Do you put the year of education ? Like I was at xxxx high school 89- 94?

It's not really necessary to list the date these days, and if you have a degree or post-grad qualifications you don't need to list your school exams. That's the key to a CV; it's not everything you've ever done, it's the most relevant and recent evidence of your capability for a specific job or purpose.

Thank you @SeagoingSexpot . I will qualify with a foundation degree. Got level 2 maths/English at college . My gcse aren't even worth mentioning D and under.

Ok @drinkingwineoutofamug, makes sense. In that case, yes, I would just list your foundation degree and institution - no need to list the date unless it was very recent, in which case you might want to make a point of its being "fresh" - and your maths and English quals without a date.

I don't list anything sub-degree level on mine - I recently had to prove my GCSEs (for the apprenticeship I mentioned above actually), but I did that easily by just digging out the certificates. I do list my degree dates at present, but my Master's was relatively recent and as time goes on I will probably take them off. The further in time you get from when a qualification was completed, the less it matters when you took it.

@merryhouse I agree with a pp that you'd need to treat your CV as if you were just starting out. So I'd be inclined to go with one page rather than 2. A personal statement seems appropriate to briefly outline what you think are some core skills, how you gained them and what you want to do now.

The secretarial and governor of your school are absolutely relevant. Importantly here, include achievements - eg during your time as governor what initiatives / committees did you lead and what were the outcomes? Has the school seen significant progress in x, y or z? Any secretarial work should highlight your skills, particularly IT etc.

List relevant skills eg IT/computer programmes, languages etc.

Any volunteering is worth including, particularly if you had a leadership position - "led a troop of girl guides for 5 years blah blah"

Thank you again @SeagoingSexpot . Got myself into a right flap about this. I used info off my nhs jobs cv. But it is all seriously out of date. But seem suitable at the time as it got me jobs. But that cv is relevant to what I was applying for at the time. Now it's a whole new kettle of fish.
Luckily I have a job on qualifying but this is for the nmc so I have to sell myself

I'm going to chop bits out of it now, but how much? Are there any good templates for nanny's CVs that you can recommend? I'm going to cut out my work experience that I gained during my college course, but what about my first jobs? One being working in the college nursery, and the next just 4 months in another nursery (just long enough to give me something to put on my CV before my first nanny job - nursery work was never for me!). Technically they're part of my work history but they aren't really relevant 10 years later - shall I cut them now? How much detail should I go into for each of my nanny roles? I want to come across warm and friendly but professional.

I agree that a nanny CV probably needs to demonstrate warmth etc. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't also highlight achievements etc. The big problem with a nanny CV is that often roles are very similar to each other so it can get repetitive. I think I'd b e inclined to start each role with a two line overview of what made it unique - there were twins/the kids were very sporty and required a lot of planning to get them around / special needs/ particular issues for individual children (eg my DD was quite resistant to new things and activities and her nanny and I worked hard to help her learn to accept/appreciate this) etc.

I think you can also include achievements of sort in your job responsibilities. So if you were meal planning, shopping and cooking perhaps say if you made an effort to expand the range of food children ate or if you got them to help you to learn basic cooking skills. If you help them with homework how has that impacted they children's school performance etc.

Interests, where they may intersect with your duties (not hobbies) seem appropriate and could possibly be referenced, eg "Interests and activities I enjoy sharing with the children" then list: baking, swimming, arts & crafts etc etc.

Whenever I've hired a nanny that's what's been missing for me - they often come across well but it's not clear to me that just because they have a certain job responsibility that they did it particularly well. Proof helps.

@DelurkingAJ

It’s often a lack of tailoring too. So, when I was applying to do a placement in Brussels for an NGO, having conversational French and basic Russian was relevant. When I applied to be an accountant in a UK only firm I didn’t mention it. Equally, the research paper I had published would be relevant for a job in the pharmaceutical industry (even in accounts as it reminds them I understand their business) but doesn’t make the cut for financial services applications.

^^this One of the biggest misconceptions is that you have one CV that you send out to every/any employer.

Use the job description from the advert - it basically tells you what the company are looking for in an individual. Then tweak your experience to highlight the points listed in the job description. If you spent a year doing something totally irrelevant to the job you are applying for then it's ok just to put dates/company/job title and move on.

For entry-level and return to work CV's, I'm not really interested in hobbies unless you've done something. For example, "play table-tennis" is a hobby that I don't need to know; but "coach under-14 table-tennis" might be relevant as it shows experience of understanding rules, teaching, and coaching

Exactly.
Same as if you get two graduates with same classification going for the same role. One "just" has the degree, the other has done it whilst coaching an U10s rugby team, leading a Brownie Pack and playing in an orchestra. I know which one I would put money on being the better candidate. Now, obviously if you only had two applicants you interview them both, but if you have 100 people and need to lose a lot of candidates who all meet the job spec, it is another filter you can use.

So, when I was applying to do a placement in Brussels for an NGO, having conversational French and basic Russian was relevant. When I applied to be an accountant in a UK only firm I didn’t mention it.

Actually, I think languages should always be included, but only if you can speak it fairly well - at the very least, at conversational level. different languages are not always a job requirement but I do think they can be a differentiator between one person and another. A UK firm may, for example, be handling UK accounts for a Russian business. Russian is unlikely to be necessary for the job, but someone who speaks Russian would potentially be a better candidate than one who doesn't.

I don't see the harm in including something that's an actual skill, because the fact that you've learned that skill shows dedication, application, adaptability etc.

I mean I probably wouldn't bother putting that I speak French if I was applying to work in Gregg's or as a receptionist for a local plumbing supplies company, or something like that - but less because it's 'irrelevant' than because I'd be afraid that the person reading my CV might think I was being pretentious and I thought I was too good for their job, or that THEY might think I was too good for their job and not hire me because they'd assume I could just waltz into another job where my French skills were required. But if I was applying to work for a big company with an international outlook, even in a non-client-facing role, I think I'd still mention language skills because so few people have them in the UK and you never know when that might come in handy at that company.

To my mind, any hobby or extra-curricular skill which requires some dedication to achieve it would be an extra tick in favour of that candidate. Like previous examples given of having a pilot's licence or getting to the third round of Bake Off. The people who put these down on their CV aren't stupid, they know they're not going to be flying or baking in the role they're applying for. They're not just doing it to go 'Hey, look, I’m not just an office drone, I’m an interesting person!' What they're trying to show is that they are willing and able to learn new things, apply themselves to tough challenges, keep a cool head under pressure, and any number of other qualities which would be an asset to an employer.

The revelation that HR professionals are reading it and just going 'Ugh - irrelevant!' or worse, assuming that this person isn't really interested in the job because OBVIOUSLY they must secretly want to be a full-time pilot or baker or Russian interpreter, is horrifying to me. How incredibly narrow-minded! If I was hiring and I had two qualified candidates, one of whom had some extra achievement like that, I'd hire that person in a heartbeat over the other because there's proof right there of their adaptability and tenacity.

Exactly @turquoise50
You've put what I've been trying to say, much more eloquently than me.

The revelation that HR professionals are reading it and just going 'Ugh - irrelevant!' or worse, assuming that this person isn't really interested in the job because OBVIOUSLY they must secretly want to be a full-time pilot or baker or Russian interpreter, is horrifying to me. How incredibly narrow-minded! If I was hiring and I had two qualified candidates, one of whom had some extra achievement like that, I'd hire that person in a heartbeat over the other because there's proof right there of their adaptability and tenacity.

What you're overlooking there is that selecting on these kinds of non-work-related factors at a first sift is actually a means of embedding discrimination and bias. A lot of hobbies and pastimes are class-coded or just something that people from poorer backgrounds won't have had time or leisure for, despite the fact that they may well have demonstrated much greater tenacity etc in their lives than the baker. A CV is not the place to be trying to deduce personality traits from hobbies - it is fully appropriate for the sift to focus only on how well someone demonstrates the work-related skills and qualifications to get them to interview. By all means explore someone's tenacity in achieving X extracurricular at interview.

what you don't know, is how the person doing the filtering will respond to what your unusual hobby

How true! I once went to an interview where the interviewer said, 'I see you mentioned cartooning for XX magazine -- was the one about the road signs yours? Really liked that one.'

I didn't get the job, but it did make my day.

@SeagoingSexpot Surely it's prejudiced to assume what someone's class background is from their pastimes, just as it is to assume it from their educational qualifications, their early career jobs, or even their name. Your assumptions might be even right in 90% of cases but they're still assumptions. If you're going to ask people to 'market themselves' via a piece of paper then there's no escaping these unconscious biases, sadly. I’m not saying ONLY interview candidates with a long list of extra curricular achievements, but telling people never to mention them or that they'll be ignored if they do is ridiculous and doesn't prevent discrimination in any way.

If you want a totally level playing field, then don't do any sifting: just pick twenty or thirty CVs at random and invite those people in, all together, to sit an aptitude test or other suitable assessment, and pick your five interviewees from those. Yes, you might unwittingly miss out on the perfect candidate for the job. But the same applies if you do it your way, and this way would be less unfair.

When I was recruiting once in a low-income country we got one application claiming to have a MBA from a US university, except they helpfully put in brackets (Master of Bull and Advice)

@BlingLoving

Thanks! I like the way you phrase it 'Interests and activities I enjoy sharing with the children...' because to be honest while I enjoy art and craft, cooking and reading with my little charges I wouldn't usually choose to do these things in my personal life so it feels disingenuous to list them under hobbies.

Agree about ditch CVs and have an application form. Not interested in hobbies. Just want them to do the job and have the requisite skills or aptitude to develop those skills.

@EggysMom

I'm torn about it. My first family shared my interests of horse riding and surfing (the parents, not the baby!) so I wonder whether seeing them as hobbies on my CV swayed them towards me over other Candidates, even if only subconsciously. I was only with them until their little one started school and never shared these abilities with her. I don't know.

Oh and please follow the application instructions!

My last advert was for a new PA. I really wasn't asking much - they had to be able to follow instructions and write letters. I asked them to send me a CV and a covering letter. I said by email was fine.

As expected my email box filled up quite quickly but one woman ruled herself out instantly by rolling up at reception and asking for me to be paged. I was curious enough to answer the page and went to meet her in reception whereby she handed me her CV.

I asked why she hadn't emailed me ". I asked had she read the instructions? "Oh yes but I like to do these things in person". Then the penny dropped. "That was a test wasn't it?" I nodded. "I've blown it haven't I". Another nod

@WitchQueenofDarkness

Oh and please follow the application instructions!

My last advert was for a new PA. I really wasn't asking much - they had to be able to follow instructions and write letters. I asked them to send me a CV and a covering letter. I said by email was fine.

As expected my email box filled up quite quickly but one woman ruled herself out instantly by rolling up at reception and asking for me to be paged. I was curious enough to answer the page and went to meet her in reception whereby she handed me her CV.

I asked why she hadn't emailed me ". I asked had she read the instructions? "Oh yes but I like to do these things in person". Then the penny dropped. "That was a test wasn't it?" I nodded. "I've blown it haven't I". Another nod

I had this in my last job, the advert was clear to address the application CV and cover letter to me by email before X date.

So a woman turns up at reception just before 5pm, it wasn’t an open to the public type of company, she was in a cloud of VERY heavy perfume (which gives me headaches, so that was an instant turn off) and hands me an envelope addressed to The Managing Director and when I explained it really had to be by email she said she thought she might have missed the cut-off date (she hadn’t, there was still a week left, and why she thought turning up in person would mitigate that I don’t know?) she then called the next day asking for the MD to check he’d got her application. She did not get the job.

One of the very best tips I've seen on this thread is to have a serious browse of the AskAManager site. It really does cover pretty much everything you can think of, in an up-to-date and engaging way.

Thank you, @PymChurchBeach, for such a fascinating thread.

Fascinating thread. Long ago when I was a school governor I was on an interview panel for a teaching post at my children's primary school. The application form included space for a personal statement where the applicant had to outline what they had to offer. One woman had attached a statement which started off something like 'I am applying to work at Gasp0desKids School because ....' What stood out like a sore thumb was that Gasp0desKids School was in a different font and point size from the rest of the text. It wasn't for reasons of emphasis, it was very obviously the only thing she'd done to personalise the application. She didn't get the job, not because of that, but she didn't manage to appear very enthusiastic or interested in the school at the interview either.

I had similar in an old job where I dealt with applications for a Masters course. One poor sod had written 'After I decided I wanted to continue my studies in Widgetmaking* to postgraduate level, I went to several Open Days and considered all the information I could find on every Masters courses in Widgetmaking. I am now confident that the best place for me to study next is Nottingham Trent University.' Just one problem, my employer wasn't Nottingham Trent University.

*It wasn't Widgetmaking.