5 year old - meltdowns and controlling behavior.

[Tontoro]

Hi, I didn't really know how to title this thread but I'm posting here for traffic. I've namechanged because I feel like such a shit parent to DS.

He is 5 and has always been anxious. Lots of trouble with transitions always, right back to 18 months old when he started creche. Always went mad changing from one game to another, we always had to stay for up to a half an hour to get him to agree to stay, even though he liked his key worker etc. A lot of very agressive behaviour around controlling his environment basically. At that point he was a toddler and so it was fairly par for the course. We weren't concerned, though it was stressful.

So anyway he went to school and everyone said a more rigid structure would help him. Well he went postal pretty much immediately. It got so bad that the SNA (who was in the class for another child) had to spend half her day managing DS. We were appalled.

So between October and March we were liasing with a child psychologist. She observed him in class and concluded it was more likely to be behavioural issues, and the school agreed and so he is classed as neurotypical. I tend to agree with this. He has no other flags for ASD traits. He just has a terrible temper which is triggered by control. She also said he was emotionally immature for a 5 year old, more like a 4 year old basically.

The schools closed early here (Ireland) and we were hugely relieved, and hoped he would grow out of it.

He has not.

We have read every book, we do all the right things. We placate and distract and hug and lovebomb and take toys away and give them back and do everything we are supposed to. DH is a SAHP and I am part time and am here a LOT. So he has huge amounts of attention. DH is very calm and will talk him down for an hour. I can't do that. Hence my failure.

But there is one behaviour that really triggers me.

He won't let you leave the room. He will bar you leaving the room so he can scream at you for an hour, over and over. He won't let you get up from the chair, he wants you pinned down whilst he screams at you. I can't cope with this at all.

This morning I was trying to have some positive time after a bad day yesterday and was showing him pictures of animals on my phone (his favourite) but after half an hour when I wanted to go into the kichen he freaked. He ended up climbing on top of my body screaming in my ear whilst I sobbed.

Eventually I sprang up and shouted "get off me!" and DH came in and I was sobbing and DS was screaming and I went into another room and bawled my eyes out. I did it wrong. I can't do it right. I don't know how to extricate myself, he will never let me.

Yesterday he chased me around the kitchen, ripping my clothes, and hitting and biting and kicking me and I had to run out of the house to get away because he wasnt wearing shoes.

I came back in after 5 minutes. But the screaming went on for about an hour.

Today DH ended up spending an hour and a half holding him and cuddling him whilst he raged and demanded more animal pictures. He is a better parent than me.

I can't be trapped and pinned, I can't. I don't know what to do. I try everything. I try just forcing myself out of the room but be just follows me. I can't escape.

This is too long and it's incoherent I'm sure.

But all the books, Volcano in my Tummy etc, don't have any advice on being trapped by your bloody 5 year old. I am such a failure.

Oh, lovely - you’re not a failure. It’s an incredibly hard thing to deal with. I’ve been there. Things that have helped with DD(6) are:

Visuals, showing what’s happening now and what’s coming next. Even though she’s perfectly capable of understanding if you tell her this, it seems to sink in much better with visual reinforcement.

Timers - we have a traffic light timer that we use for everything. So if I need to leave the room, I might set the timer to 5 minutes. With the timer, she truly believes that she’ll get what she wants (in this case, my attention) in 5 minutes.

A laminated card that says “WAIT” on it. She holds the card until I come back, and then gives it back to me. I have no idea why this works, but it does, a lot of the time.

Also, the timer really helps with transitions. It’s made getting ready for school and going up at bath time a lot easier.

Hi, firstly, a big hug. I've been there too. I know you said he is not on the ASC pathway but I'd suggest looking into PDA. My child has this profile and it's often something that professionals are unaware of. PDA society website is excellent as a starting point. I say this because if this is behind the controlling behaviour then taking toys away (or consequences in general) is the absolute opposite of how to help your child feel safe and be able to start learning to manage his emotions. I say this from experience and regret in how I dealt with my child at that age.

Even if he is neurotypical, such high anxiety will mean that building trust is the way to go rather than sanctions. I highly recommend the book 'raising human beings' if you want to look into a more collaborative approach to helping your boy.

Wishing you all the best and I'm sure things will get better for you. You're not a bad mum you just need support and the fact that you are asking for help shows how much you care for your boy.

I just reread my post and I really hope it doesn't sound critical. I really do hope you can find a way to help your boys anxiety levels come down as it sounds like it will be key to reducing the controlling behaviour. If you can tag team with your partner when it all gets too much that will help you. Try to take time for yourself to build up your resilience as it is really hard.

Thanks so much for even responding.

I haven't a clue. I do think thetimer would be a red rag to a bull, unfortunately. We have long tried warnings and countdowns and lots of prep for any transition but they often don't stop the explosion when the transition occurs.

PDA doesn't seem like a perfect fit for him, tbh. He is socially quite extroverted and wierdly no trouble whatsoever in any public space. He's an absolute angel in a supermarket for example. And we can go several days without a meltdown, where he's pretty chilled. Oh he grumbles, but it lulls you into a fantasy where he might have grown out of it. Then BAM! something trivial sets him off and we have a bad few days and our whole lives are walking on eggshells.

Today he has been still very sulky and bossy and threatening to blow at any moment. We are exhausted.

His anxiety also only manifests in trying to control other people's actions and movements. He isn't anxious about the world. He doesn't care about what clothes you throw on him or whether he's lost a toy or whether something has changed in his environment. He doesn't try to control his friends at all. In fact he's very much a follower of more assertive boys in the playground and seems happy to play whatever they suggest.

In other words, he's either very very chilled and good humoured or a holy terror and there's no in between.

So I haven't a clue what's going on with him as nothing seems to fit. Not a clue.

Oh and when he's in chilled mode, transitions are ok and he doesn't try to control us.

In school in September every day was a bad day and reportedly he was having 6 meltdowns a day. He couldn't cope with everyone moving to a different task/subject before he was finished, in his opinion. Yet he was lovely to the other kids and was well. Liked despite it all.

Gosh I don’t have much advice as I have a v tricky kid the same age but one thing I wouldn’t put up with is being screamed at and expect to stay in the room to hear it. I can’t imagine letting a 5 yr old stop me from leaving the room and if he tried to id move him aside forcefully. Even to escape to the bathroom and lock the door. And full sympathies as I know what it’s like dealing with meltdowns that go on and on, we try to muddle through.

Hi OP

Your DS sounds very like my eldest DS now 8. He also has anxiety but now is also believed to have ADHD. It surprised me when I read up more deeply on ADHD as it isn’t as it’s often portrayed! Controlling behaviour and difficulty with emotions, sensory overload, becoming disregulated and finding a transition difficult ( particularly if very absorbed and hyper focussing) can be part of it . My DS also seems outwardly sociable as well, is very funny and seems fine out and about ( sometimes because he is getting more instant stimulation). It might be worth a quick look - my DS is unlikely to get a diagnosis as he is ‘borderline’ and has some strengths that don’t quite fit but much of the descriptions and behaviour for ADHD fit.

Even if it isn’t ADHD some of the strategies for helping children with that may help anyway ( and are often very similar to those for anxiety).

I really feel for you - I know how hard it can be. I’ve found lockdown a particular challenge with my DS ( I’m also a single mum) and some days he reduces me to tears. Today he is in a chilled phase and an absolute delight! I can tell the moment he wakes up what sort of a day we are heading for. It wasn’t until I had my youngest DC that I really understood how challenging DS is ( much as I love him dearly).

Sending hugs over the WiFi.

I have similar behaviour with my 6.5 year old. He’s been like this for years and it’s only in the last 12 months that the school/Senco has talked about getting him assessed (we spent 2014-2019 getting his older brother (who doesn’t show this behaviour but other classic asd traits) assessed for ASD and then ADHD.

When my middle child is triggered I’m filled with dread. I’m back at the school tomorrow (I work there) to have another meeting to get ball rolling for assessment. He can be lovely, is an angel at school, seems happy to follow stronger characters and is very clever. He would almost never kick off in public, although when he has it’s because he’s literally not been able to hold it in any more.

I have a friend in a similar situation and we both say that if this was a partner or older family member we wouldn’t take it, it feels like abuse - regardless of my son being able to control his actions or not and

I'm reading your post and I feel so bad for you OP. My eldest is in the process of being assessed for ASD. He has other traits, but he is a very anxious boy and has taken to following DH and I around the house since lockdown started. I'm surprised from what the child psychologist has said based on your description. Are you in a position to ask for or potentially pay for a second opinion?

I know you've said that your DH is what you consider to be a good parent, but I'm wondering perhaps if in the long run he isn't actually helping him if he is constantly trying to placate him. Your son needs to learn that he can't control everything and that you leaving is not a bad thing. He needs to learn to control and manage those emotions and you and DH need to help him to do that for himself. I think if anything, DH needs to take a step back.

What do his tantrums look like? What would happen if you did something like lock yourself in the bathroom while he had a tantrum?

Don't want to upset you but have you considered that maybe DH never tells him no? If this is controlling behaviour and you agree he is neurotypical then it has to be learned behaviour?

Could he just be a bit of a shit?? I say this in the nicest possible way, he might not have any thing up, some kids are just like this.
The power you give him by sobbing is probably confusing for him. When he traps you, can you really not just over power him with an “I don’t think so” and get up and go. Make sure your environment is safe (no breakables in reach etc) and leave him to it? Parenting is for many, exactly as you describe it. Lovely moments mixed with some seriously shitty ones. You are not a failure but it does sound like you need to take the power away from him. Make sure you and your DH are getting lots of breaks.

The first psychologist that assessed my son went at great pains to tell us and school that he wasn't autistic and because his presentation was quite confusing, everyone accepted it.

He got diagnosed as autistic a couple of (extremely stressful) years later.

Professionals only see what they see in their little window of time. A proper autism assessment is based on SO much more - lengthy case history's, developmental profiles, assessments from different professionals and the actual structured assessment of the child. Based on what you've written I would urge you to pursue a proper diagnostic assessment for autism. Quite possibly things will get worse before they get better. Between 5 and 9 were the worst times and at 10 and a HFA specialist school later, things are on the up.

He doesnt get to not "let" you do anything
How utterly bizarre

What havfeverhellish said is absolutely spot on. People who don't have SN kids don't get it at all and IF your boy is autistic you must grow a thick skin.

He hasnt been properly assessed. The school psychologist is an outside private person who does 1:1. But she only observed him in the classroom and in afterschool and from what she said, he happened to have a good hour both times so she never saw any of the worst of it.

And then at the end of all that she told us she had an 18 month waiting list. WTF?

The school put him forward for assessment but the Dept of Education only take 2 kids per school per year and his case wasn't "bad" enough. Or rather there were 2 kids who needed it far more.

So we are going to have to get the ball rolling privately but with Covid it's the worst possible timing. God knows when they'll even start seeing kids again and they will have kids waiting since March.

One things for sure, we won't have the slightest help before school goes back at the end of August. I am absolutely dreading it. And a whole new teacher too! And a level up in schoolwork! Needless to say homeschool was tough going. He's sharp as a tack but there was a lot of refusal.

DH is more patient than me , definitely. But he definitely loses the rag and does Shouty Dad on occasion. He's only human. And he says No plenty. We both do, as we are 100% on giving clear boundaries and consistent rules. But he's much better at defusing DS, much much MUCH. I think I do a shite job. I despair at how bad I do.

I did say to DH this morning "I would never in a million years tolerate this from you, I'd have left you long ago. How am I letting a 5 year old do this? "

But people with kids that are not like this don't get it. We also have a 3 year old DD who would never in a million years behave like this. When she gets cross she just shouts and cries and you can give her a cuddle and that's largely the end of it. This is a whole different ballgame.

What would happen if you did something like lock yourself in the bathroom while he had a tantrum?

He would try to kick the door down for about half an hour, screaming the same phrase over and over in rage the whole time. Let Me In or Come Out. You would have to wait till he was physically exhausted before coming out. And even then he'd be wailing at you from the floor probably.

It sounds really tough OP, I think people who don't have a child like this say "oh just do this and they will calm down" - like do you not think I've tried that before?

I've been in the same situation with my DD screaming in my face, for us I suspect ADHD but then again she could just be a pain in the bum type of kid.

Who knows these kids could end up the leaders of the future with their willpower

Just a thought, is it worth videoing some of his behaviour to show an ed psych (or similar). Then they can see him at his worst, they don't have to rely on your description. Ideally recording from when he's behaving well (perhaps a static camera set up in your living room?). If that can be done at school too, even better, but I appreciate that may be difficult.

I have no doubt that there may be deeper issues at play, but your husband is making it worse for you by coddling your son when your son abuses you. Your husband actually rewards your son's abusive behaviour. You need to get a handle on this very quickly and arrest it before it becomes entrenched.

I don't think your husband is doing a good job at all. In fact, I think he is undermining your own efforts and making you physically unsafe into the bargain.

Does your husband have controlling traits? How does he treat you and what is his general demeanour towards you? Children pick up on hierarchies much more closely than you might realise.

It sounds exhausting. Defo worth following up the assessment. But also it seems like he has you divided somehow. Does he somehow feel like he needs to wind you up to get attention? Especially if your husband then spends ages cuddling him. I’m in no way saying that cuddling is wrong when a child is upset but only if it’s not on the back of aggression.

Your life with your ds sounds very much like mine with dd11. She also does the barricading of doors, blocking me leaving etc when in meldown and will just scream and shout the same thing over and over. It's like I have to absorb the bloody meltdown with her, it truly is an assault on the senses! It's not easy now that she is almost as big as me and can be very violent. Leaving her to go to another room/lock myself in bathroom only makes her worse and usually results in a trashed house.

I'm a single parent, have an older child who never in a million years has behaved like this. Dd has been on the pathway for asd diagnosis with Camhs for over 2 years now. Very slow in our area but it has been done thoroughly and I'm expecting a diagnosis when they do final assessment via video call next month. Sensory screening as part of assessment revealed that dd has lots of sensory issues that I wasn't aware of. She mostly keeps a lid on things throughout school day, bottles it all up for home.
If I was you I would get a referral through your gp for camhs. Waiting lists are long and things will likely get more difficult for your son as demands on him grow as he moves up through school.

You say your dh defuses the situation much better
What does he do to do that?
Can you learn from that?

He does a lot of the stuff the books say. He'd be quietly trying to get DS to identify what emotion he's feeling and blowing out the angry and quenching the volcano and all that stuff.

I'm shit at that because I get into this fight or flight thing when the meltdown is at full pitch. Which is terrible.

xxlostxx it sounds exactly the same. It's like they force you to absorb the meltdown. He absolutely will not be alone when he's having one. He loses his mind when you make move. Absolutely into orbit. Totally incapable of rationality.

So DH stays with him and tries to find a moment when he can "break the loop". We call it the loop because that's what it looks like is happening in DSs brain. Like it short circuits and spins into this violent loop and if you don't find a way to break it then it goes on and on. But it's really hard to break it because he's incapable of even hearing you.