5 year old - meltdowns and controlling behavior.

[Tontoro]

Hi, I didn't really know how to title this thread but I'm posting here for traffic. I've namechanged because I feel like such a shit parent to DS.

He is 5 and has always been anxious. Lots of trouble with transitions always, right back to 18 months old when he started creche. Always went mad changing from one game to another, we always had to stay for up to a half an hour to get him to agree to stay, even though he liked his key worker etc. A lot of very agressive behaviour around controlling his environment basically. At that point he was a toddler and so it was fairly par for the course. We weren't concerned, though it was stressful.

So anyway he went to school and everyone said a more rigid structure would help him. Well he went postal pretty much immediately. It got so bad that the SNA (who was in the class for another child) had to spend half her day managing DS. We were appalled.

So between October and March we were liasing with a child psychologist. She observed him in class and concluded it was more likely to be behavioural issues, and the school agreed and so he is classed as neurotypical. I tend to agree with this. He has no other flags for ASD traits. He just has a terrible temper which is triggered by control. She also said he was emotionally immature for a 5 year old, more like a 4 year old basically.

The schools closed early here (Ireland) and we were hugely relieved, and hoped he would grow out of it.

He has not.

We have read every book, we do all the right things. We placate and distract and hug and lovebomb and take toys away and give them back and do everything we are supposed to. DH is a SAHP and I am part time and am here a LOT. So he has huge amounts of attention. DH is very calm and will talk him down for an hour. I can't do that. Hence my failure.

But there is one behaviour that really triggers me.

He won't let you leave the room. He will bar you leaving the room so he can scream at you for an hour, over and over. He won't let you get up from the chair, he wants you pinned down whilst he screams at you. I can't cope with this at all.

This morning I was trying to have some positive time after a bad day yesterday and was showing him pictures of animals on my phone (his favourite) but after half an hour when I wanted to go into the kichen he freaked. He ended up climbing on top of my body screaming in my ear whilst I sobbed.

Eventually I sprang up and shouted "get off me!" and DH came in and I was sobbing and DS was screaming and I went into another room and bawled my eyes out. I did it wrong. I can't do it right. I don't know how to extricate myself, he will never let me.

Yesterday he chased me around the kitchen, ripping my clothes, and hitting and biting and kicking me and I had to run out of the house to get away because he wasnt wearing shoes.

I came back in after 5 minutes. But the screaming went on for about an hour.

Today DH ended up spending an hour and a half holding him and cuddling him whilst he raged and demanded more animal pictures. He is a better parent than me.

I can't be trapped and pinned, I can't. I don't know what to do. I try everything. I try just forcing myself out of the room but be just follows me. I can't escape.

This is too long and it's incoherent I'm sure.

But all the books, Volcano in my Tummy etc, don't have any advice on being trapped by your bloody 5 year old. I am such a failure.

My DSD has PDA and your description matches her at five to the letter.
Please look into it more.
They need a VERY different approach to NT children and your older/ more judgemental family members may not be supportive.
Look up low demand environments.
Good luck, it’s quite the ride.

I've read tons about PDA today. But I'm still unsure as they seem to have higher general anxiety and be more avoidant of demands. And their parents having to be careful not to alert them in advance to any demand.

So it's like the meltdown part fits but the rest.... you would have to squint to make it fit.

Like he's been placed in high stress environments, he's been in hospital twice for operations. And has thoroughly enjoyed it. He didn't want to go home. And we told him a good week in advance and he was looking forward to it all week. Like, I said, in some ways he's hugely adaptable. Great to go on holiday with etc.

Im beginning to suspect ADHD more tbh.

The bit that has most helped me today is a phrase that "meltdowns are panic attacks".

Obviously DH has been basically reacting like they were panic attacks all along. I've been reacting like I was being assaulted. I think that's been a bit of a lightbulb moment today.

That’s great something has clicked for you about it being like panic attacks. Hopefully in that way you’ll be less triggered and you’ll find it easier to deal with. So now I’ve changed my mind about what I said before, it doesn’t sound like your son is splitting you and your DH. It sounds different to that.

Yes, you're spot on, meltdowns are like a panic attack. I've got better at managing them as time has gone on. I can see the signs when one is building. One thing I have realised over the years is that it is usually a build up, in my dds case it is anyway. They can seem to happen out the blue but always it has been one 'stress' or 'demand ' too many on her before the explosion.
My instinct is to get as far away from her when she's like that but time has taught me that its easier and over sooner to ride it out. Had meltdowns upto 3 hours long a few years ago. I try to get her to sit with me and have a cuddle, this helps to diffuse it a bit. Very very difficult to do when being sworn at and attacked! But this can lessen it quickly here.
Does your ds ever show any remorse after a meltdown?

I have two DS with ASD but both also have learning difficulties. What struck a chord with me in what you said is about how your DS copes well out of the house eg at school.

My younger DS is quite anxious but often seems to cope well out of the house in high stress environments and then kind of 'saves it' for when he's at home. Maybe our DS feel that if they are in a safe environment they can express the bottled up anxiety?

Hi OP, I really feel for you as much of what you write is very familiar to me.

Take a look at Yvonne Newbold's work:

yvonnenewbold.com/resources-on-send-vcb/violent-challenging-behaviour-the-basics/
yvonnenewbold.com/what-to-do-when-your-send-child-controls-the-whole-family/

yvonnenewbold.com/what-to-do-when-your-send-child-controls-the-whole-family/

Does your ds ever show any remorse after a meltdown?

Not immediately after but about a half hour later he will start to look sheepish and will come and say Sorry. And we will have a hug and a kiss.

But that's about 5 seconds and then he trots off playing. He hates talking about it, and won't.

So we have to really pick our moments to talk about kicking and hitting etc. Sometimes it has to be the following day. And even then he only half listens.

Sometimes he's very ingratiating after one and is very obviously on his "best behaviour". Lots of I love yous and good manners. But that doesn't stop the bubbling up of anger if we continue to enforce rules i.e make him brush his teeth going to bed. Then another meltdown can happen again.

Tontoro my dds reactions are very much the same. Can't talk about it or I'm 'winding her up again'. She does sometimes say sorry and will sheepishly clear up the mess she made round the house during a meltdown. Other times it's like nothing has happened and back to business as usual and bringing it up will set her off again. Exhausting.

Ok I am following here for advice because some of you particularly op are basically describing my daughter. She is 8 now. Sometimes an absolute delight, loving, funny, a great actress. Sometimes as u said violent, utterly distressed, and it’s a build up of little things that has done it. Also similarly I get more of it than DH - she’ll try to bite or scratch when at worst. Controlling - stand there no back a bit forward back getting more and more worked up because she can’t control everything! I will go look up the ‘like panic attacks’ thing. She hates loss and change.

Sorry if you've explained this; I can't see it. Is he back at school now? If not, why not -- do you live somewhere where schools aren't open?

My 5 year old was behaving WORRYINGLY by May. I wouldn't say that he's neurologically atypical (having had a lot of experience in the family of ASD) but he's extremely shy and has some ADHD issues. During lockdown I became more and more concerned because he was starting to have meltdowns every day. He went back to school and immediately (as in, first day) was a changed child. He also seemed much better at being IN school than he had done before lockdown began (around his 5th birthday) chatting happily with other children as they wait to go in, less tired afterwards, sleeping well. Meltdowns have stopped. He isn't protesting about going to sleep and sitting on the landing crying he now reads Enid Blyton in bed every night. (Before lockdown he could read q well in theory but took no pleasure in it. During lockdown he did almost no reading.)

Five is very young and I wouldn't be surprised in our case if some of the problems recur. But before you worry too much, I would wait to see what happens when he's back in a normal environment. This has been such an abnormal and stressful situation for all of us, and especially for children of this age who are old enough to see the familiar structures collapse but not really old enough to understand why.

We live in Ireland. Looooong lockdown. Schools won't open till the new school year.

Some elements remind me of DS1 who was recently diagnosed with ASD.
If he was observed in school it wouldn't flag up because he masks. He has friends. His quirks are quite subtle. He had a record of speech delay, was slow to make proper friends to play with and a lot of sensory issues.

We hit our low point at 7 and had a hideous 6 months building up to and after SATs. His record meltdown was 4 rage filled hours triggered by me asking if he'd changed his reading book. We live about 300m walk home from school and by the time I guided him ranting across the road, he was kicking and hitting at me in the street. It was 4 hours before he could talk to me again without reigniting it.

DS does have panic attacks. I recognised that after him describing his fear the night I aquired a brace of pheasants and he said he thought he was having a heart attack and dying.

He's improving with age (9) as his understanding of himself and our understanding of him improves. It's getting easier to read the signs, easier to diffuse, and easier to talk it over after. There's no point in doing anything other than keeping him safe at the time. Sometimes things like squeezy, crushing hugs help that sensory desire for security. Sometimes he needs quiet and food and drink.

In the absence of trauma, very, very few neurotypical children behave like this because they want to. Whatever the underlying cause is, it's an outlet of fear, anxiety, frustration and a sign that the child is overwhelmed and not coping.
Sometimes that ability to cope ebbs and flows with the demands of life. 5 & adjusting to school was harder than 4 and 6. 7 nuclear, 8 & 9 improving.
The world is an uncertain place for children and extra hard for them to to cope with social and practical restrictions. Many NT children are struggling now in their own ways anyway.

Thanks to everyone for all the support. Since I have touched base with the GP and he advised that an assessment in the public health system would take at least a year.

So he recommended a private guy and we have been lucky enough to get an appointment for the end of July. €550 for those who are interested! For an hour and a half! Eeek! But we have no choice.

Hopefully an assessment will help us and we will have it in time for the school, so will help them too.

We had 2 meltdowns yesterday over trivial things but they were short. With the one at dinner time (because there was no more stuffing) I did react differently and led him into the living room and gave him big hugs and put on a funny voice and he laughed, so it broke the loop. And he was able to go back into the kitchen and say sorry.

I still don't know what's wrong with him, he doesnt seem to fit perfectly with anything (for example with AdHD people report attention and memory issues and he has an almost photographic memory) but we'll hopefully have more of an idea by the time he goes back to school which is a big step.

Xx

@Tontoro Everything crossed that the assessment goes well. Two of my sons and my uncle have amazing memory/recall and one ticks all the classic boxes for ASD, the other for ASD and ADHD and then one we’re waiting for assessment and he ticks boxes for ASD, ADHD and PDA. I think that it really is a broad spectrum and the symptoms and quirks can flow right across it. My oldest is sat next to me cuddling the cat and talking a mile a min about minecraft but is highly resistant to sitting down and doing schoolwork. He won’t be physical towards me but will meltdown if I push so I’m not.

I read the OP and to me it sounds like he is in complete control.

When you want to get up/ go out of the room, do you tell him/ announce it first?

Something like, after we read this/I finish this I am going to go into the other room. Make it a firm, no nonsense will be tolerated voice.

I would not be able to tolerate being pinned down, not allowed to leave the room. And I have a child who is prone to anxiety so I have a limited amount of experience.

You need to take charge back. And I don't mean this in a negative way at all. Your son needs love and attention. But you are in charge. Full stop.

Another thing I found that when he was starting one of his rages, I could cut him off by getting there first myself. In the sense that I would make it very clear what I wanted, what behaviour I expected and what I would not tolerate. This only works if the anxiety is not too high but it stops behaviours from developing off the back of the anxiety.

My son is also bad with transitions and needs to know what is going to happen next. He is 11 now so a lot better but when younger, I would have to give a lot of warnings about approaching transitions. They need to know what is going to happen next.

So for example, if you are leaving, where are you going, why, when are you coming back? Can he come too?

@SandysMam I agree with you

My dd displayed similar behaviours in her early teens. She was diagnosed with adhd at 14 and with asd at 16.
They don't diagnose PDA in our area but I am certain she has this presentation of autism. It is routed in anxiety and a need to be in control. She was extremely extroverted until around age 15, she has become introverted as she got older though.
Try PDA strategies to see if they help. Therapeutic parenting is also really useful with children like this.
She would have never met the criteria for diagnosis at primary age as she masked so well.
I always felt something wasn't right though as she never responded to all the usual parenting strategies.

How is his listening in general and attention span?

My son was like this and he has adhd. He's also autistic but that went unnoticed until he was meditated for his adhd.

He's so much better now and he's happy.

Hi Tontoro, my husband and I came across this tread after we have been experiencing similar problems with our 5 year old son. I am wondering if you are any further towards a diagnosis yet? We are considering private sector for a neurological assessment. Thank for your help. I hope that things have been more manageable for you all. I can empathise completely on the mental impact this has on us as parents. X

saw there’d been a post and am hoping OP also got some answers and support.

My (now just turned 9 year old) DS had his asd assessment this summer. He was relieved to know it’s not because he’s ‘naughty’ or has a ‘broken brain’. People still act surprised when I talk about it but it’s helped knowing it not it not ‘me’.

Hey doctorboo, did you have the same issues as the lady had with her son in the OP? What diagnosis did you end up receiving for your son if you don’t mind me asking. Interested to see what the collection of symptoms we’ve all been struggling with are attributed to. Thank you ❤️