Has healthy debate died?

[CuriousPixie]

I enjoy conversation and listening to others’ points of view. But yesterday I felt I couldn’t say anything without someone taking offence.

I always try to be diplomatic and am never personal but the norm seems to be very confrontational with everything in black and white and you’re expected to pick a side. There is no middle ground or shades of grey up for discussion.

So as not to drip feed, the topics weren’t hugely political, religious or BLM, they included a style of dance, a holiday destination, cycle helmet law, logistics of how schools prepare for kids to go back.

What was that famous quote? Something along the lines of ‘I disagree with your opinion but I’ll defend to the death your right to express it’
That’s kind of my point, not what folks opinions were but more that folks minds were made up and they weren’t prepared to listen to others’ points of view or question why they had that point of view.

Have we become so sensitive that it’s now become a personal insult if someone prefers a different holiday destination?
Are folk more heated because of lockdown or is it the creeping example set to us by politicians?

Let healthy debate ensue ......

I think you are right. Recent years have seen an increase in polarised thinking and echo chambers and people aren't used to polite disagreement. We can listen, agree to disagree and it doesn't have to be a constant crusade to convert an opinion.

Yes, a lot of people have now moved to the"you can have free speech unless I disagree with what you're saying" which is just ludicrous.

It’s definitely much worse now than it used to be, for various reasons.
Our young generation have been raised with social media - they simply block anyone who disagrees with them or expresses opinions that offend their dogma. They only listen to like minded echo chambers online, so never hear the opposing arguments.
There is also the rise of virtue signalling, wokeism, and identity politics. Youngsters crave conformity, and chant mantras to show their solidarity with their group’s prevailing mindset. They haven’t subjected it to any critical analysis, and it would be heresy to question it.
How else could such utter nonsense as “transwomen are women” (when they are biologically, genetically and physically men) or anti vaccine conspiracy theories, or flat earth beliefs ever have gained traction.
Even our universities- which should be bastions of rigorous scientific debate - have sold out to students demanding the sacking of lecturers with opposing views, and trigger warnings on literary texts, or dictating the choice of course materials to fit woke preconceptions.
When I was young we were taught how to debate in primary school, and it included examining the opposing views and respectfully countering them with logical well reasoned arguments. Nowadays that has been reduced by TRAs to screaming death and rape threats.

I despair for the future of humanity, if we cannot turn this around.

Yes, I believe it has and it's a skill which urgently needs to be relearnt. I have learnt so much by listening to others who I disagree with, and it helps me mould my views too. My DC are still too young to properly tackle this with but I will be ensuring they know how to debate and cope with people disagreeing with them properly.

I agree, and I think the issue is not solely the province of the young.

I feel dogmatism and militancy is very much on the rise, with a lack of inclination, or even ability to be open to the idea that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

they included a style of dance, a holiday destination, cycle helmet law, logistics of how schools prepare for kids to go back

Am I the only one wondering how those subjects became contentious? I guess the latter is down to what side you fall on the covid-19’debate ie. it’s nothing more than a bad cold or it’s equivalent to the plague. But dancing? Who’s arguing about that?

@justanotherneighinparadise

That’s it exactly. They shouldn’t be contentious. One friend loved a particular style of sensual dance and that’s totally fine. Some agreed with her. Others said it wasn’t their thing because it made them uncomfortable but she then said people shouldn’t be so judgey and make her feel bad about it. No one was and those who didn’t like the dance were quick to come back and say it wasn’t personal, no one was judging it’s just not for them but she took it badly.

Excellent post @Babdoc

Yes, and great points Babdoc.
I'm also amazed by how much currency the 'google it' mantra has gained. I'm all for it, I do it myself, but it is as if any other way that doesn't live in your head or moments away on your device (not least personal experience, teaching) is too much bother, and possibly inconveniencing.
And yet, I feel horrified at the grief from students (I am thinking especially of the Warwick University situation where some male students had been caught making vile sexual/violent comments on social media about female students) and there was/is a significant enough backlash from the community to some students asking for designated 'safe spaces' on campus. Along the lines of 'Why should universities have any safe spaces or suppress freedom of behaviour like this?' Although it's certainly not specific to that uni, it's certainly coloured my view of the place and I wouldn't have my DD there in a year or 2.

@Babdoc
You 100% right
Even schools are pushing one side views for fear of being judged.
People get easily offended and get angry on Twitter.
There are some sensible people on YouTube talking about virtue signalling and identity politics.
I loved interview with Ayishat Akanbi and will ask my teenagers to watch it.

Unhappily I think it has. I think it is an expression of ultra-individualism, where primacy is given to the emotions induced in the person being communicated to, rather than to what has been said.

The main principal of propaganda is to appeal to emotions like fear, anger. When people are emotional they forget about critical thinking and logic.

Lots of brilliant points made here. @babdoc great post

Yep afraid so.

When I was in school we had many a debate about all sorts of adult topics. Was my favourite lesson when we did it in humanities tbh.

Even though we were kids/young teens we were expected to back up our position with facts and/or justification for feeling that way. And managed to do so without people storming off or yelling at everyone.

I cannot believe how grown adults now behave. Even when questions are phrased logically or without offence intended they just flounce or get defensive. Its pathetic.

If you cant answer simple questions then how the hell can u possibly know what you are arguing. Amd pointing oue impossibilities or contradictions is not hatred or denial of existences . Even on MN a question no one can answer gets deleted as opposed to even attempted to be answered

Its absolutely pathetic I dont know how these peope deal with life itself

People on ALL sides of a debate seem to deal in absolutes now - and it happens on here as well.

Either you believe this or you believe that - and then people try and shut debate down - when things are often more complicated, nuanced etc - you can see it on this thread already.

But we live in a world of 240 characters on Twitter - which makes complex debate difficult.

Either you believe this or you believe that - and then people try and shut debate down - when things are often more complicated, nuanced etc - you can see it on this thread already

I agree some things can be complicated and there is often no wrong or right answer which is obviously fine when things are opinions and beliefs systems as say even the bible, most peope dont necessarily live by all just the bits they can when they can.

Sometimes however I think facts are simple. But the trouble with facts is they dont care what people think or believe they just are what they are. Nuance then comes from people trying to say or do the right thing however many trip themselves up or contradict themselves trying to prove the impossible.

I guess it depends on what people hold as the greatest importance. Feelings and approval and " kindness" ( put in quotations because often kindness in one aspect leads to conflict and unkindness in another"

Or facts/ truth. Which sometimes hurts or is difficult but remains regardless of how anyone feels about it

Sometimes however I think facts are simple

Depends if you have all the facts.

To give an example of what @Babdoc says about social media / young people, I've seen many posts on Reddit, where posters say they've been blocked on a sub-reddit not for anything they've said on that sub-reddit but because a moderator has trawled their posting history elsewhere and finds their views unacceptable (eg gender critical).

On top of that, for many I fear that the Brexit debate fuelled this - as it really pushed people to label themselves as pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit, rather than trying to explore the arguments on both sides.

Personally, I think even abhorrent views should be allowed to be expressed (in the right context), because exposing them to sunlight is more likely to weaken their hold in the long run. (Nick Griffin seemed to lose a lot of support by being scrutinised on Question Time).

Depends if you have all the facts

Sometimes the problem is they do. Often that's when the flouncing/blocking occurs.

The problem with shutting people down from debate is it triggers extremism. It’s exactly this liberal left policy that’s fuelled current conservative governments such as Trump. I think the future is very bleak. You have just the kind of tactics being employed online that will force disenfranchised people to use violence to be heard on the streets.

I am having to teach my kids to listen fully to others opinions and consider them. I don’t remember anyone having to teach me this.

It’s ironic that you ask that question on Mumsnet, OP.

Healthy debate is dead as a dodo.

Subscribe to the hive mind group think or get abused.

Yesterday on a thread about girls wearing shorts under dresses, I didn’t subscribe to the hive view that it’s OK for girls to show their knickers all the time. I got told I was weird.

To add, just because there’s a strong voice online it doesn’t mean your average person on the street shares that view.

This point was proven on Mumsnet over the last few years. So many posters made their own echo chambers absolutely convinced Brexit would never happen. But people voted for it. Then those same people shouted that Labour would win the next election. Everyone wildly agreeing with each other, applauding the next hectoring anti- conservative rhetoric. The Tories won the election with a majority 🙄

You can silence people but you won’t change their thinking.

You can silence people but you won’t change their thinking

Which has sadly lead to thought processes being subject to legal scrutiny. And the attempts to make wrong think a punishable crime.

Happens when you do not have the ability to debate facts with facts. Or what would you be afraid of?

And yes, silencing people leads to extremely polarised views. By being silenced by someone calling me weird (and implying I was a paedo) on this website yesterday, I’m more sure of my opinion. Because why would I consider or entertain the opinion of someone who, instead of using logic and discussing views, calls me weird.