Has healthy debate died?

[CuriousPixie]

I enjoy conversation and listening to others’ points of view. But yesterday I felt I couldn’t say anything without someone taking offence.

I always try to be diplomatic and am never personal but the norm seems to be very confrontational with everything in black and white and you’re expected to pick a side. There is no middle ground or shades of grey up for discussion.

So as not to drip feed, the topics weren’t hugely political, religious or BLM, they included a style of dance, a holiday destination, cycle helmet law, logistics of how schools prepare for kids to go back.

What was that famous quote? Something along the lines of ‘I disagree with your opinion but I’ll defend to the death your right to express it’
That’s kind of my point, not what folks opinions were but more that folks minds were made up and they weren’t prepared to listen to others’ points of view or question why they had that point of view.

Have we become so sensitive that it’s now become a personal insult if someone prefers a different holiday destination?
Are folk more heated because of lockdown or is it the creeping example set to us by politicians?

Let healthy debate ensue ......

And call the wrong person ‘weird’ or ‘crazy’ or ‘nuts’ and alienate them from society. Then put a gun in their hand and you’ve got someone capable of settling the argument with violence.

I belong to a forum for a profession. When I first joined, it was a source of support, advice, discussion and general chat. Now p, every thread, apparently unremarkable or not, rapidly turns into a war of hatred between extreme left and right.

It’s caused many to stop posting and more to leave. The outcome of that, of course, is that it’s become more polarised, more unpleasant and often downright nasty. Threads are pulled and posters banned.

So yes, healthy debate is no more. I used to love E flush lessons at school, when the teacher would set up a debate. There were times when reasoned and rational argument changed my view. These days, there is zero tolerance of any view which doesn’t chime.

Foxy I used to run a support group around 20 years ago for a range of skin complaints. I paid for it all myself, no adverts, it was extremely busy. It started off as you described and ended around three years later with me being stalked online, doxxed and threatened with my life by a disgruntled member. So I know how the most innocuous and benign topic can escalate into death threats. I never underestimate male violence.

@Daddaddad I think you are right. The last six years have seen polarised debate on a huge scale. Scottish Independence was Yes or No, then Brexit was In or Out. It makes polarised views seem the norm.

hen Brexit was In or Out

Apparently there is a strong correlation between how people voted for Brexit and support for ending lockdown.

The problem with shutting people down from debate is it triggers extremism. It’s exactly this liberal left policy that’s fuelled current conservative governments such as Trump.

I completely agree, it makes things much more divisive. Take Brexit no debate with leavers cause they were all xenophobic & some remainers were shocked that the leaver numbers were so high.

There is a lot of bias in the press on both sides but I think what has happened more recently is the left wing bias has fuelled a lot of far right extremism.

There is a lot of bias in the press on both sides but I think what has happened more recently is the left wing bias has fuelled a lot of far right extremism

If you see Left wing bias in the UK press, then you are probably not reading the majority of the newspapers out there.

If you are referring to the BBC, then it gets complaints about left wing bias and right wing bias - so it's probably doing something right.

So what kind of views would people like to see in the press that they don't think are being debated at the moment?

Oh you followed me over here... the thread will die now

I'd rather just see the print 'press' die completely to be honest, and thankfully it seems to be heading that way at an accelerated pace.

Too many people still believe that newspapers print 'news'. They're nothing of the sort any more. It's just agenda-led propaganda driven by the desires of their (overwhelmingly white, right-wing, conservative) owners.

The sooner printed news stops being the single source of information and world view for people the better.

Oh you followed me over here... the thread will die now

Well, I was here first

Do remember also that things are particularly fraught at the moment because people (On all sides) are feeling scared (even if people are in the covid is nothing to worry about school of thought theres a general atmosphere of anxiety thats hard not to pick up on). Fear exacerbates peoples need to be part of an in group, their level of loyalty to the in group, and decreases their level of tolerance for people outside of it. So I think that partly explains why everything feels particularly tribal at the moment

Plus I always find face to face discussions much less polarised than online, and less likely to lead to misunderstandings because of tone of voice, facial expressions etc. Much more of peoples discussion/conversations have been online recently so I think everyones a bit more fraught than they would be normally (myself included)

I’m actively teaching my tweens to debate while I’m homeschooling. We pick a topic they disagree on (everything) and I challenge them to present a case that is opposite to what they actually believe. That takes the high emotion out of it, and focuses on the critical thinking and rebuttal.

I hadn’t been aware until we started doing this how much I’ve missed the pleasure of debate. People pontificate a lot these days but no one (I know) unpacks an issue or plays devils advocate.

I think social media has polarised opinion. If you click on something, you get more of that, and you end up with no exposure to other ideas or counter arguments.

I remember as a teenager there was a referendum and one of the Sunday broadsheets had a full page of arguments pro- and facing it, a full page of arguments anti-. There was an expectation that as a voter you had a responsibility to inform yourself and form an opinion. That seems so old school now.

Yep, it's the ones that shout the loudest and talk at you that killed it.
You have to agree with what the majority think or you are some sort of weirdo.
Free speech has nearly gone too, because we can't offend anyone. I'm not talking racism, or other ism's btw.

Great thread.
If you don't hop on the Groupthink express, you're 'cancelled'. It's such a social shit show.

I'm told I live in cuckoo land on here, because I don't agree with the norm. I lead in part a different type of lifestyle, due to my race. We have some different cultures that aren't to everyone's taste, but we are all different and that's what makes the world go round.
We all have different opinions and values, it's not a competition, but some folks think their way is the only way. They can't comprehend differences, it over loads their brains.

Would it be unreasonable to expect newspapers to print accurate facts, rather than propaganda? Unfortunately people believe what they read. The point about debate is that it should be a balance. Differing views certainly, but presented fairly, with reason. It should be possible for opinion to be changed by that debate, not because one side shouts louder than the other.

Because ‘news’ is immediate, it’s everywhere before any facts can be properly established. It’s never been more apparent than it has been over the last few months and continues to be.

Yy foxy

A news report should be what it is. When you start removing or obscuring information then it's useless. If people cant be sure of what they read then when the media is required to help keep people safe or informed enough to make decisions then they wont be able to trust it.

News should not have an agenda. It should be reported as it is.

When you have a criminal on the loose and everyones looking for the wrong person then all that does is put people in.danger.

@Babdoc brilliant post absolutely spot on.

Just to come back to this, have a look at this article, not for the rights and wrongs of Sweden's approach to the pandemic, but the way it describes a culture where it's made hard to disagree with the consensus. Sceptics should be able to question mainstream views without fearing personal attack (of course, that's not to say that we shouldn't question the sceptic's arguments).

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/26/swedish-exceptionalism-coronavirus-covid19-death-toll

Interesting open letter. Bigger voices than ours thankfully seem to be speaking up about this

harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/

@Babdoc

It’s definitely much worse now than it used to be, for various reasons. Our young generation have been raised with social media - they simply block anyone who disagrees with them or expresses opinions that offend their dogma. They only listen to like minded echo chambers online, so never hear the opposing arguments. There is also the rise of virtue signalling, wokeism, and identity politics. Youngsters crave conformity, and chant mantras to show their solidarity with their group’s prevailing mindset. They haven’t subjected it to any critical analysis, and it would be heresy to question it. How else could such utter nonsense as “transwomen are women” (when they are biologically, genetically and physically men) or anti vaccine conspiracy theories, or flat earth beliefs ever have gained traction. Even our universities- which should be bastions of rigorous scientific debate - have sold out to students demanding the sacking of lecturers with opposing views, and trigger warnings on literary texts, or dictating the choice of course materials to fit woke preconceptions. When I was young we were taught how to debate in primary school, and it included examining the opposing views and respectfully countering them with logical well reasoned arguments. Nowadays that has been reduced by TRAs to screaming death and rape threats. I despair for the future of humanity, if we cannot turn this around.

Agree to all of this