Trans men vs trans women

[borntohula]

I know there are already a million threads on this subject so I might have missed this.

I've only recently started really learning about different viewpoints. When I was using social media (especially Facebook), most of my 'friends' were of the opinion that 'trans women are women.' Since starting to use MN again, I've come across very different viewpoints. Ultimately, I don't really care what other people do to their bodies but when I've thought about it in depth, I wouldn't date a trans man nor would I be comfortable with a trans woman using the same fitting room as my DD.

Anyway, my question is, do people feel more sympathetically to trans men than they do trans women? I'm not saying anyone is 'bashing' trans women but less focus seems to be on trans men, even when JK Rowling's comments were in response to 'people who menstruate,' which includes trans men. Hope this isn't too garbled!

Trans men are women so of course their voices go unheard, unheeded, ignored. Patriarchy, innit.

I would actually like to hear more from transmen.

@FlibbertyGiblets, well that does seem to be the case, yeah. I wonder if they are less vocal than trans women? I don't have Twitter so I feel like I'm probably missing out on a lot of the debate!

Twitter is the same. It's all about the TWAW and very little about TMAM. Suspect the JKR outrage doesn't really give a shit about TM who may be triggered by saying women menstruate, but cares a lot more about TW who never have menstruated feeling left out if we talk about women menstruating. (Though I don't really believe much of the outrage is actually based on either of these things. ) I'm basing this on the number of responses that declare TWAW as opposed to TMAM. You can look at Twitter without joining.

I think Gender Critical women are more focussed on transwomen, as it is males claiming the right to be treated fully as women, that causes harmful effects for women.

I respect both and believe they have the right to exist as people. But I stop well short of believing that sex can be changed.
The voice of women and trans men are consistently ignored and shouted over. I have no problem whatsoever with trans men using sex segrated spaces as they are female. Women's rights are their rights too.

The focus is on trans women because that's exactly how many of them want it. It's a special kind of narcissism to demand acceptance of male bodies in women's spaces.

Nousernamehistory I agree with all of that.

I am now questioning the motives of straight men who insist that 'twaw' because I seriously doubt the majority of them would sleep with a transwoman. I could be wrong though.

I don’t mean to sound cruel but the fact is that she was a poor imitation standing aside the real men.

Fucking hell. This is the sort of shit we mean when we say Mumsnet is full of transphobia.

The one with a cock has the loudest voice, whatever they are wearing.

The thing is, it's not something I've ever thought about in much depth until recently and I still don't want people to feel as though their feelings are being dismissed. I certainly don't understand the psychology behind the desire to transition. However, as a woman and mother to a girl, women's rights have to trump those of trans women for me. I have boys too and can't imagine how I would feel if they ever wanted to 'become' female. Must be pretty difficult for parents in that situation, especially when their children are still really young.

"I don’t mean to sound cruel but the fact is that she was a poor imitation standing aside the real men.

Fucking hell. This is the sort of shit we mean when we say Mumsnet is full of transphobia."

But @peach is it transphobic to say that young woman's attempt to pass as a man wasn't very successful? If they didn't exhibit the qualities or features usually seen in a man? No one was nasty to her, excluding her, denying her anything, just commenting that she didn't look as manly as the men. Which isn't surprising.

The only trans person I've ever really spent any time with is a trans man and it wasn't obvious to me straightaway but when I knew, it seemed obvious. Definitely not a 'manly' man. Very pleasant and intelligent person and interestingly, autistic as well.

To say that a trans man is "a poor imitation of a real man" and that everyone felt sorry for them is wildly, grossly transphobic, yes. Thankfully MNHQ agreed and deleted it.

@peachgreen sorry if I offended you but she was imitating what she thought a man was. That is a fact and true. Sorry if that hurts. Can’t wait for free speech to be legal again..... it is ironic because the stuff that is said on here about religious people, white people, men etc but say trans men are women and the kraken awakes 🙄

Anyone thinking they wouldn't date a trans man has never seen eliot fletcher. I consider myself straight but I'd be on that in a heartbeat.

Or I should perhaps say 'AND I'd be on that in a heartbeat'

@bunnymumy haha had to look Elliott Fletcher up, bit young for me!

Probably a bit young for me now too at 32 xD But he's a total hottie. Has a gorgeous smile.

@Bunnymumy

Anyone thinking they wouldn't date a trans man has never seen eliot fletcher. I consider myself straight but I'd be on that in a heartbeat.

I wouldn't date a transman no matter how handsome because well, firstly I'm straight and like dick, but mostly I wouldn't date someone with such polarised politics to me. Many transmen pass fairly well in photos but that doesn't mean that straight women will actually want to date them.

OP I as a feminist feel pain for transmen and their pain being women who find patriarchy and femininity unbearable to the point that they undergo risky surgeries and take dangerous hormones just so they can escape being viewed as female. I see that as tragic. However they don't pose any actual risk of harm to women (other than ideologically) so I am not too concerned with where they pee or which sports they play in or prisons they go to.

Just googled Elliot fletcher. I've seen that actor in a TV series and they absolutely don't pass as a male.

Transmen don't seem to be making the same demands from men as transwomen do from women.

I dont see how someone being how they want to be has anything to do with politics though. Surely it's a very personal battle.

I mean, I'm a feminist but you dont see me marching in any rallys or... hating blokes like a mental radical. Everybody is different. I'm sure for example, a lot of trans people are still against the idea of trans women competing in womens sport. Not everyone things the same just because they have similar life experiences.

The dick thing...hmm...cant say u have much thought to mens willie's tbh. I'm sure it would be odd but I'm much more interested in buff chests and kissing anyway so I doubt it would bother me much what was between their legs. I like what I like...and that would be that xD

*cant say I give much thought

I’d like to hear more from trans men tbh, I think they often do “pass” more so a lot of the issues many trans women face because people can very easily tell that they are biological men don’t really affect them as greatly? Most trans men I’ve seen who have been on testosterone for a long time look like biological men and I honestly wouldn’t be able to tell that they were born a woman, cannot say the same for most trans women so maybe this is a factor in why trans women are more vocal as they face more discrimination?