What does 'immigrant' mean to you if you live in the UK?

[ContessaferJones]

Deliberately posted in Chat rather than AIBU as it's meant to be a conversation rather than right/wrong answers.

This topic was discussed the other night between me and DH when C4 was doing interviews with medics of Asian ethnicity. I think several of the people interviewed were described (and may have described themselves) as immigrants, despite having been born and raised in Britain and now working within Britain. I was a bit surprised by this as I'd have called their parents immigrants, but not them personally as they were born here.

This also made me reflect on my own position. I was born here to a British mother and an Arab father, then was raised in the Middle East til coming here for University - I was clueless about the UK, had no current cultural references and couldn't understand the buses never thought of myself as an immigrant though.

So.... What is an immigrant, to you/in conversation? Who fits that description? How far down the generations does it stop applying (or does it never end)? There are Americans who pride themselves on being Dutch despite having come across from the Netherlands over 100 years ago, so maybe never....

Interested to hear responses

Ach, I left this out. I meant to add - does having one British parent mean you're officially not a child of an immigrant anymore? My mum's sister/BIL and my grandfather bang on about immigrants and their children (cf the perils thereof) and I'm sitting at the table wondering if I count under that heading to them or if I'm officially exempt because we're related

Immigrant to me means not of the country you live in.

To me, an immigrant is anyone who has moved from another country, to my country even if they are a returning citizen of my country.

Immigration is something you DO. It’s not a class of people. If you work, you are a worker. If you immigrate, you are an immigrant. If you pay taxes, you are a tax payer. Etc.

It’s just that as with anything, some bigots will seize on small differences to “other” people lives and try and make them seem like another class of people. We see this with the same disdain shown to people who claim benefits being called “scroungers, parasites, work shy,” etc. They speak like benefits claimants are another type of person when they are anyone like you or me but who need a bit of safety net for awhile. Which could happen to anyone. It’s the same with immigration, anyone could decide to do it for reasons ranging from better opportunities to a desire to experience new cultures or a desire to go back to a home country.

Interesting. I suppose it's anyone who came here any later than as a tiny baby.

Which makes my DF an immigrant as he moved from India at the age of 2. I wouldn't refer to myself as an immigrant though (British born and raised) or call someone who was born here to immigrant parents one themselves.

I agree that it's used as a method of othering in a lot of places - the whole concept of having a second/third-generation immigrant is based on that.

So far based on the definitions given I feel like I could class myself either way

I would think that an immigrant is anyone who's not naturalised as a citizen of the country to which they've moved.

I think that the word now is too often used as a slur.

I think a huge problem linked to defining immigration is that some bigoted people do not understand the difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant (who, of course,, does not have easy access to housing /benefits etc such as portrayed in the media). To me, an immigrant is a term used to label anyone who has moved from their place of birth to another place, whether for work or for other reasons. It's not a term used to describe the person, more so the process. An illegal immigrant, on the other hand, is a label for someone who has moved away from their place of birth and has entered a country illegaly and is essentially unknown to the government there. These people usually deserve our sympathy and support, but sadly tend to be the main victims of exploitation, racism and general bigotry.

Immigrant is someone who moves. By definition.
I am an immigrant because I'm British but have lived in Italy for 26 years.
There was a long thread last week about the difference between immigrant, expat, migrant etc as despite the dictionary definitions, people tend to apply their own meaning.

@Zampa

I would think that an immigrant is anyone who's not naturalised as a citizen of the country to which they've moved.

I think that the word now is too often used as a slur.

I agree about the slur bit. Which is interesting when you consider the seemingly lofty existence of expats (not immigrants?) in other places. I grew up in a sort of half-expat community - i.e. we had Arab friends too, due to my Dad - and while we ranked below the nationals of the country, we definitely weren't treated with the air of disdain sometimes shown to immigrants in the UK. It's an odd blend. Over there you were definitely 'from' wherever your parents were from, even if you grew up in that country. This was standard and accepted by all (in the 90s/00s anyway).

To me it’s someone not born here, however a friend of mine was born here, and lived here all her life 30!plus years and gets outraged if someone thinks it calls her English as to her she’s Italian and when someone tried to compliment her child in saying he could play for England one day
He was also born here
She went mad and was very offended

So Tbh I actaully have no idea

It’s like something we as a society can’t even talk about
Which I think is sad

@TheCanterburyWhales

Immigrant is someone who moves. By definition. I am an immigrant because I'm British but have lived in Italy for 26 years. There was a long thread last week about the difference between immigrant, expat, migrant etc as despite the dictionary definitions, people tend to apply their own meaning.

Ah, I missed that! Sorry to re-tread old ground. Which section was it in please?

But your friend IS Italian not British unless she's taken British Citizenship.
I'm an immigrant and I'm British. In Italy.
Nationality is different.

Countess- I'll try and find it. Tbh it turned into a typical "you are wrong!!"
Being spouted by the wrong people at the right people and not allowing anyone else to say anything.

I always thought it just meant someone who wasn't born in the country they live in?
I certainly wouldn't describe children who were born here to immigrant parents as an immigrant. And to be honest I wouldn't really think that someone who came here as a baby was either, but I understand there's legal stuff there.

I think if you go further back like saying if your parents and grandparents were an immigrant then you are too then the whole thing becomes pointless. Humans are a species that likes to wander, everyone is an immigrant if you go far back enough.

@TheCanterburyWhales

Countess- I'll try and find it. Tbh it turned into a typical "you are wrong!!" Being spouted by the wrong people at the right people and not allowing anyone else to say anything.

surely that never happens on Mumsnet?!

My children were born in the UK. However they have no British heritage and until last year they were not British citizens. They were never immigrants. I would find that offensive! I'm an immigrant but they're not, they never moved.

However they may not feel totally British or sometimes they feel they're not British at all, but that's related to their culture and how strongly they feel their heritage, like that italian lady from the pp. Still they're not immigrants.

Firstly I thought anyone not born in this country but lives here now. But it's not as simple as that.

DM, similarly to someone above, came to this country as a child from India. She sees herself as British. That's what her passport says.

Initially she needed to fit in with a completely different culture, fast, but there was also the whole Empire thing. Her family saw England as the motherland. Now she's lived here most of her life, this is home, therefore she's wouldn't immediately think of herself as an immigrant.

Also, some hard-of-thinking members of my immigrant family are anti-immigrant themselves . That drives me nuts.

First generation anyone who came to the U.K. intending to stay permanently and take citizenship.,
If they were born here I certainly wouldn’t call such a person’s children immigrants.

To me it’s a fact, not a term intended to be derogatory. Immigrants, emigrants - all those Brits who left the U.K. some decades ago for Australia were emigrants from here, immigrants to there.

I understand that the word can feel derogatory to immigrants, though.

The word conjures up certain right-leaning newspapers and murky images swathes of people chancing it by entering the UK to consume resources.

Funnily enough, it doesn't make me think of the reality of real people moving here to contribute essential or valuable skills. I work in the NHS and we'd be truly fucked without my colleagues who have immigrated here, from porters and cleaners to consultants. If we could conjure up a batch of white British clinical staff I can't help but feel the service would be poorer for it.

I think immigration and diversity is what makes the UK special.

And yes, people immigrate here to improve their lives. Just like lots of British people move overseas to get a better quality of life, too.

I was an immigrant for almost 25 years in the UK, having arrived to study there originally. I know this because I got told to ‘go back home‘ by a certain type of older man in the village where I spent my last seven years in the UK.

When this type of thing got more frequent after the Brexit referendum, I got the message and went home.

My grandmother was Russian and came here as a baby just before the start of the Russian revolution. She spent nearly 90 years living here before her death and spoke perfect English - no one would have guessed she wasn't born British, and I'd never think of my mum as a second generation immigrant.

So I think we have to acknowledge the fact that it's about the colour of your skin as well as your personal history? My mum looks and sounds English so would not suffer from racism.

On the topic of "ex-pat", I have heard it explained on here to mean people who move (from the UK) to another country to work or live for a while short-term rather than moving their permanently.

I think that's BS and it's just a term used by some British immigrants to other countries so they don't have to call themselves immigrants. I bet they wouldn't call a Romanian coming to work in the UK for 6 months an ex-pat.

I agree with PP that the labels immigrant and migrant has taken on a derogatory connotation and often seems to be associated with people coming here - legally or illegally - to "steal our jobs". There is often no separation of thought between an Indian doctor, a Polish cleaner, a Syrian refugee and a trafficked Vietnamese person in the back of a sealed lorry.

I find it especially distasteful the way asylum seekers are conflated with general immigrants. I remember arguing on my doorstep several years ago with a UKIP election candidate on the subject of his party's demonisation of asylum-seekers.

moving there

Immigrant = Born outside territory of country where you live & without any parent of nationality of country where you now live.

But tbh, it's fuzzy if you moved to (country) as a child. Then you're more like 'child of immigrants' than a true immigrant.

Does any nationality besides British have the 'ex-pat' concept?